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  • City placement proposal

    First of all, I only consider this a proposal, to get us going on the subject. Please give all comments you think are worth mentioning, I'll try to adjust the proposal...

    I mailed a screenshot to our e-mail address. Keep that closeby when reading the next things (BTW, sorry for having such thin lines, I know they are hardly readable, but it was either that or a huge filesize)

    With this proposal, it seems we more or less keep at ideal distance. To the North, I thought cities with 1 move in between them would be more critical than on the South (as we won't have any neighbours there). South, there can be bigger and smaller steps.

    I tried to give each city 12 workable tiles (sometimes on the coast they have a few more, but there is not much to be done about that). Further, I tried to give all 6 workable landtiles (can be borrowed from a neighbouring city when we don't have aquaducts nor harbors).

    I would suggest we take our hut-settler to either city 1 or 2, and for the settlers we are building take sites 3,4 and 6 (as they have bonus food). Further, city 11 would be a good one to settler early, and 8 or 10 to control barbs.

    Specific city comments:
    1: I know that moving it one tile would place it at the river, but that also gives one more desert tile, and one less flood plain.
    2: Could also move 3, but we've got plenty of pure coast cities anyway
    3: This city has too few tiles as drawn here, but that's only temporary: it should be better once the surrounding cities can move off the land, and use the sea more. It can easily grow to a nice size 6 city.
    6: Could move 3, but then city 5 is far less productive. It would mean we can squeeze in another sea-city to the NW of it.
    7: I don't like loosing hills neither, but this is the spot... or 6 moves 3, and we build another (tiny) city in between 6 and 7.
    8: needs irrigation to grow beyond size 2.
    9: the gold city... with the only problem that choosing this site meant that the river-hill at 8-9 could not be worked. I don't think it's a bad choice...
    10: also needs irrigation, and it has to come from far.
    11: potentially a very powerful city. It could move 1, which would make more hills available, but then it would lose its 1 move distance to site 12. If we aren't pressed for 12, I would certainly prefer moving it one tile.
    12: Could move 3 if the terrain asks that much. But I guess we're not settling that one fast, so plenty of time to decide
    13: Is the only site that takes some kind of bonus: it's on a shielded grassland. It could move 3 or 2, but then the dessert is split between city 1 and 13... I thought that when we've got some more exploration done, we should try to settle another city on the coast (either where Gronk is now, or one tile 8 of him. Let's say this is still open for the moment.

    So... what do you guys think?

    DeepO

  • #2
    IMHO any city so close to the capital must have at least 12 workable tiles, no less.
    Additionally, we should try our best to place as many cities near the river that runs by EoTS.

    Major kudos for taking the initiative and drawing up a plan!
    "Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
    And the truth isn't what you want to see,
    Close your eyes, and let music set you free..."
    - Phantom of the Opera

    Comment


    • #3
      Shiber, do you mean city 1? Or city 3? City 1 has only 11 tiles (if I count right), but it will be hardpressed to work them all, as many of them are desert. City 3 hasn't got 12 tiles encircled (9 atm), but can use 2 more from the EotS range, and can use more tiles from the coastal cities surrounding it. These have some extras, but I first of all checked if all cities had 6 land tiles to work.

      Thinking on this, I noticed one problem though: if a city is size 12, it uses 13 tiles including the city tile... maybe this layout is a bit too squeezy. I counted on 12 tiles including the city (my mistake). I don't think many cities will have a problem, as we can shift a little towards the sea (most of the coastal cities can use 13-15 in this layout), but if anyone wants to check: please do!

      DeepO

      Comment


      • #4
        I said i would critisize the dotmap so here it is :

        I think city #1 should be one tile NW, that way we would gain 1 gpt more from city central, that means a lot in the early game.

        City #2 should perhaps be down south where you have placed city 3. That way we can pump out settlers faster when using the game and wheat.

        City #1 position should really be decided before our next turn so the settler could be moved accordingly.

        Very good luck indeed that we got the settler from a hut, very rare with non-expansionist civs, having less cities then others helps, but still.

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm having a hard time evaluating the city positions because it's hard to see which tiles the cities would be working. It would be nice to have one plot indicating which cities would be working which tiles at size six and another at size 12.

          I do see one thing I absolutely hate about this plot: site 13 wastes a grassland with shield. Moving one tile to the southeast (where a warrior is now) would solve that without (as best I can tell) compromising the city's overall value. Other than that, I'll need to look at things more than I have time for now.

          Nathan

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          • #6
            For some reason I thought that putting a city on a gold tile meant that you wouldn't get the bonuses from it, but then again I don't recall ever doing it, because why the hell would I put a city on a gold tile if I thought I'd lose the benefit . I’d be thrilled to find out I can do this if I could still play

            What would you think of working the gold a little earlier than #9? The bonus trade from the gold can be a real tech boost.

            Comment


            • #7
              Nathan, I know it's hard to see the tile boundaries, sorry about that. These aren't really an indication on the size 12 boundaries, but they should be close. As an indication on what is workable at size 6, try using the 9 tiles with the city in the middle... I can't fix these, as they will likely shift when one city is expanding, and another decreasing in size.

              City 13 is indeed a problem, I hate wasting the SG too. It could move onto the desert, but then we lose a possible desert coastal site for number 14 (not on the screenshot). We need to wait for a bit more scouting before we can decide on that.

              Randolph: a gold city has the commerce bonus in the city just like if it would be worked with a road (not a railroad). It is an easy way of gaining some more commerce without having to sacrifice food for it. Oh, and the numbering was just a way to discuss about specific sites, it does not imply the order of building them. Site #3 would be my first choice, but with the settler we gained, I would go for either #1 or #2 (or #13, but then we have to move back)

              DeepO

              Comment


              • #8
                Great job!!

                A few comments:

                1: I would strongly support moving one tile to the NW. First, it's then on a river. Second, it will then have acces to hills, which will nicely counter-balance all the floodplains.

                11: One tile to the SW, por favor. I hate putting a 'forward' city next to mountains. I wouldn't worry about 1-turn access to 12 yet... also, please notice that 11 is more than 1 turn from any 'core' city anyway.

                12 & 13: Too early to worry about.

                Again, well done.
                The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

                Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hmmm...

                  On further reflection, I suggest the gold tile for city 4.
                  The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

                  Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Theseus, nice comments... let me reply.

                    1: if we move it one tile to the SW, we lose a floodplain, gain another desert, and are very close to our capital. I thought about it, but prefer this position... it has some disadvantages, I agree. if it has to moce towards the river, I would move it NW, even if that loses the 1-move distance.

                    11: Good thinking on the mountains next to the city. I agree.

                    13: it may be a bit early, but I placed it there to have an idea on the restrictions on #1. It will be somewhere close, and before we build on #1, we should know where 13 is going to be. on #12 I agree, it is too early for that one, but there are only 2 tiles where it could be.

                    and about ordering: the gold city for #4 seems fine by me, otherwise it should be #5. The commerce is fun, plus it will save us some barb-patrolling.

                    DeepO

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      My own comments:

                      First of all, I've always believed that it's best to have fewer cities, even if you don't end up utilizing every tile, and I believe that the figures back me up.
                      Alexman's excellent thread on the matter of corruption states that the more cities are closer to the nearest capital (palace or FP, palace in our case) than a specific city, the higher the corruption will be in that city. Therefore, with fewer cities we'll have lower corruption, and that more than justifies giving up a few tiles for more optimal locations, corruption-wise.
                      Now, for some specific comments regarding the immediate city locations:

                      1: I'd move it one tile N for reasons stated above.
                      3-6: We should settle in that area (but not necessarily in one of those specific sites) next, with the settler that'll be built in EoTS.
                      9: Excellent site, should be our third because of the gold tile (and the tech bonus that it'll give us).
                      "Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
                      And the truth isn't what you want to see,
                      Close your eyes, and let music set you free..."
                      - Phantom of the Opera

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Shiber: that's not exactly right. No matter how much corrpution you have, an extra city is a bonus. Certainly in our case, were cities most likely won't grow beyond size 12. Plus, corruption has ceased to be a problem, because we understand it far better then in the beginning (largely thanks to alexman!), and the patches have made it almost too easy on us. It's more a case of good capital and FP placement than anything else.

                        IMHO, having lots of half grown cities closeby outweighs having fewer but larger cities far away a lot, and I think most will agree.

                        DeepO

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                        • #13
                          I that case, I'm definitely for building it on the gold

                          I wasn't sure about the numbers, but we should start planing order. The first few should be in food-rich areas of course (I agree that our settler should go to 1 or 2, and our first build settler to 3)

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                          • #14
                            Although I could see turning the city on the floodplains into a settler pump... get it up to 8 pop, with a granary.

                            Shiber, don;t forget, in MP the earlier game is more important, and thus more cities, albeit with long-term growth limitations, is a good thing.
                            The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

                            Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The first rule of settler pumps is don't let them grow past size six. If you do, they need at least twice as much food to grow. (Having them hit what would be size seven the turn a settler is completed so they end up at size five works fine.)

                              EotS has (or will have) enough irrigated furs to make a good five-turn settler pump if we put in a granary. I don't think it could quite manage four turns because working three flood plains all the time to maintain the needed growth rate would cost it too much production, but I haven't gamed it out to doublecheck.

                              Site 3 should be able to serve as a four-turn settler pump if we irrigate both the game tile and a wheat and give it first dibs on the shielded grasslands. As far as I'm concerned, that's our top site for a home-built settler, but it's a bit far away for our free one.

                              My revised version of site 13 could make a nice settler pump as well once it builds a temple. With access to two flood plains and three shielded grasslands, it should be able to serve as a six-turn settler pump once it gets a granary. I'm inclined to view that as our best use of our free settler. (It would be especially good for settling points farther to the north.)

                              More later if I have time; my brother and I are going somewhere in a few minutes.

                              Nathan

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