Turn 162 : 470 AD

[asleepathewheel]

good points on demo

maybe that would be good for rp to research after they get printing press?



What is rp building in their cities? How many beakers would they produce if they had libs and unis in all of their cities? would they be a viable research partner then on something other than one scientist?

[Cort Haus]

Vox said they expect PP around 500AD . That's three turns time. Sleepy, can you ask Beta for the ETA on PP? Vox already have astro & gunpowder. From Lego? Could RP have traded Vox Gunpowder for PP?

[asleepathewheel]

I'll ask rhoth about the timetable on pp.

[Arrian]

If we can get demo via trade for a tech that others already have, fine. Otherwise it isn't worth it.

I'm not sure we need 50 workers upon discovery of Steam. 25-30 is probably enough, provided they are concentrated around our major production centers in the south, all ready to go right away.

There is some potential downside to building a ****load of workers, though if it happens we're screwed anyway: we might not have coal. In which case we have 50 workers and nothing to do with 'em. But we're screwed if that happens, so I guess it doesn't make sense to plan for.

Anyway, my main point is that the value of super-fast rail laying is somewhat counterbalanced by the upkeep cost of extra workers and the opportunity cost of building them. Building them in Cyclone and SS is no biggie at all - those cities seem perfectly situated to provide us with workers. Dissidentville, OTOH, can be made into a worthwhile big city. So I'd rather we went that route with Dissville, and got our workers from Cyclone & SS.

Tech path: the main decision is yea/nay on Industrialization, before beelining for Sci Method. Right now I'm actually leaning against detouring for Ind, but we don't know how things are gonna shape up. Maybe we get approached for tech trading. Maybe not.

We might get ToE, but Hoover is even more difficult. One can defeat superior production power (Lego in GA) via lengthy prebuilds & being the 1st to a tech. Getting ToE would get us to Electronics first. However, our weakness is the size of Hoover vs. the size of available prebuilds. The gap between Hoover (1000 shields?) and the best prebuild (600 shields?) is a major problem for us.

-Arrian



-Arrian

[Cort Haus]

In fact we just asked RP to forget research, build marketplaces and pay us gpt! Specifically, 20gpt for starters.

Markets, aquas & harbours are transferable. We might get those cities back yet.

[Arrian]

Re: RP doing research... I doubt it. The research costs are about to jump when we hit the industrial era. It seems to me that *by far* the most efficient use of resources dictates 100% tax for RP, with most of it going to us, so that we can research at or near 100%.

However, just to make sure, we should maybe look at the beaker costs of some industrial techs and compare them to RP's total potential beaker output.

They have 5 cities, yes? Imagine if all 5 were size 10-12, with libraries and universities (that's a long way off, though, folks!). Each land tile would produce 2 commerce, each coast tile 3. We'd need to count (or, better yet, ask RP to count) the tiles they would likely be using, get their raw commerce, deduct a little bit for corruption (should be really minor) and then add in the library/uni bonuses at, say, 80% science/20% tax. If the beaker output results in them being able to research industrial age techs (let's say mid-industrial, because like I said, it's gonna take a while before they can get libs/unis built) in under 15 turns (arbitrary, I know, I'm just making this stuff up as I go), then maybe it's worth it.

But I'm doubtin' it.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

If I was in the shoes of either GoW or ND, I have to sweat bullets the the other will attack. I look at Lego and GS and think that an invasion is not in the cards for a very long time. Even then, I have to worry about interventions by the other parties.

Given I am sitting on my UU, do I want to wait until it is conterfiet?

IOW invading any other landmass will be very tricky, but sitting on my hands is a lossing proposition for GoW or ND. I can't ask Lego to join in any invasion of Stormia, they will get even stronger. I maybe able to get GS to support us against Lego, as they know it is needed.

I am better off if Lego is stomped and split three way than if things stay status quo.

[asleepathewheel]

Vox will discover printing press in 500 ad, so we will get it when our turn rolls around after that.

[Arrian]

I think the most likely time for a Bobian breakup would be when Military Tradition shows up.

They've got muskets over there, and each has a kickass Knight-level UU (with the weaker civ getting the better UU, and Leos too). Both have to be somewhat daunted by taking the other on, especially with Legoland's troops hanging around.

However, if one could get Cavalry a few turns before the other and upgrade a huge number of them...

Frankly, GoW, with Leos, might actually stand a better chance of gutting ND than the other way 'round.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

How many turns until you can expect to have Steam? How much will be recouped from railing tiles? Well actually how much by having anextra say 20 workers? They cost 1 gpt each, so will it be worth it?

I mean of course it is worth it if we are invaded to have the RR up, but if we are not invaded and it took an extra 20-25 turns to connect all cities what is the break even point?

If we are in a tight race for a wonder then getting all the tiles RR for wonder cities could make the difference.

[Arrian]

That's what I'm saying: we don't need to connect all our cities right away. The main advantage lies in RRing our mined tiles in our wonder-producing cities in the south.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Of course... and 24 workers can RR one city in one turn...

Euh... sorry to have to ask this, but RR gives one more commerce as well, no? If so, the extra upkeep cost will be easily recuperated if more workers are present...

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by vmxa1
How many turns until you can expect to have Steam?

We estimated 30 turns to the new era, then perhaps 10 turns for Steam.

On the prebuilds, our palace size is 700 shields, if that's any comfort on the Hoov prebuild. If we do get ToE, then it would take a while for Lego to get those two techs, enough to add 300 shields?

[DeepO]

300 shields is some 10 turns in a RR, not factory'ed city. It will be close, but we should be able to pull that off.

Besides, I don't think Lego a that much more cities then we do: they have twice the land, but we built our cities very close. I'm not sure they have a 1000 shield palace...

DeepO

[asleepathewheel]

pray that vox gets nationalism as their tech....