Turn 162 : 470 AD

[Cort Haus]

Good point, sleepy. We're not overflowing with workers though, and all we have will soon be soaked up in the post-aqua pop expansion.

I'm looking at Sandstorm. It has a granary but limited growth potential above six - and is already kepping Arashi down at size 10. Maybe it;s OK for a mkt and lib, but maybe then it should go worker-pump.

[Cort Haus]

Turn sent.

[vmxa1]

Again I was not involved early, but I wonder why ND seems to be so contrary with us? They seem to want us to help them with deals and twist RP's arm for peace and yet not be willing to do anything in return or am I missing something.

They don't seem to be even willing to be smooth, just nearly demanding???

[Cort Haus]

I know what you mean, they're not exactly charmers are they? At least GoW do whatever they do with some style.

I feel that ND's lack of interest in tech co-operation suggests that they (and maybe GoW) are thinking of taking Stormia via marines and going for domination. If Lego are turning their expanding power int oa sea wall and protecttive Navy - and given that ND have sod-all navy, probabaly, the chances of Lego getting jumped as they deserve is not looking promising.

[Cort Haus]

sent to Togas cc Arnelos

(copy in log)

Greetings, friends at RP.

When you open the save you shoud find Astronomy in there - with the warmest compliments of GS. We can tell you that GoW and ND do not have these yet, so please observe NDA conditions, though Lego and Vox do have Astronomy.

We have studied our economy and concluded that despite your 15 turns or so of 1 scientist research of the tech, it is best for us to research Banking immediately, which we are doing at a four-turn pace. We calculate the banks we build will boost our research to win back these four turns by the end of the era.

We are running a defecit however, so we must ask you to help us with gpt. It's good value, we're sure you agree If we do the research, while you contibute GPT, we can both be in the industrial era in no time. GS commercial output will surge over the next 10-15 turns as the program of post-war economic builds starts to bear fruit.

So apart from the cats for your sea-wall, which we are pleased to see rolling out from your cities, we would suggest that you build markets, aquas and harbours to boost pop and pump out the gold. You'll want to keep yourselves some gpt for rushing some builds, so offer us what you can. We're running a 20gpt defecit at the moment, so getting that covered would help.

Perhaps Navigation or Democracy at 40-turn could be considered - or maybe the scientist would even be better working mines and fields. This would be something to discuss and consider.

Meanwhile, your galley can return home safely via the sea now, and we will shield it as it gets close to your port. We can also use galleys to screen the coastline from GoW ships, allowing you to take up the north and westerrn positions on the sea wall when the time comes.

Regards,

Cort Haus.
on behalf of your good friends Gathering Storm.

cc Arnelos

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
I know what you mean, they're not exactly charmers are they? At least GoW do whatever they do with some style.

I feel that ND's lack of interest in tech co-operation suggests that they (and maybe GoW) are thinking of taking Stormia via marines and going for domination. If Lego are turning their expanding power int oa sea wall and protecttive Navy - and given that ND have sod-all navy, probabaly, the chances of Lego getting jumped as they deserve is not looking promising.

Luckily for us marines are quite aways away, and hopefully our ships will give us a turns warning.

I'm graetful that we didn't see an ansar army, meaning that they won't have marine armies storming the beaches (well, if they held onto that gl, they would have one)

Its going to be extremely difficult to guard against marines, as its only going to take a handful to kill the unit or two they want for the insertion point/city.

We have some time before then, hopefully something will happen on Bob/lego before then....

I imagine that when nukes roll around, unless we get an-anti nuke treaty (which GoW would violate anyway) we are in trouble. One nuke is all they need to kill us, realistically. Hell, it would only take a handful to decimate our territory, then roll in with tanks....

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Again I was not involved early, but I wonder why ND seems to be so contrary with us? They seem to want us to help them with deals and twist RP's arm for peace and yet not be willing to do anything in return or am I missing something.

They don't seem to be even willing to be smooth, just nearly demanding???

They figure we are chumps. They are willing to act on that assumption.

Sending lux accepted when we cannot declare war without landing and pillaging or attacking would have been beyond stupid. Glad we did not do that.

My advice to us was already given to BigFree. Go quiet and lay low. Let ambition and greed fuel the demise of the troika. The worst that will happen is that things will be peaceful til Lego builds the UN and wins a vote or builds a Space Ship. The best that will happen is that ND and Lego slag each other. If that happens, then it is our game to take, gentlemen.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
I know what you mean, they're not exactly charmers are they? At least GoW do whatever they do with some style.

I feel that ND's lack of interest in tech co-operation suggests that they (and maybe GoW) are thinking of taking Stormia via marines and going for domination. If Lego are turning their expanding power int oa sea wall and protecttive Navy - and given that ND have sod-all navy, probabaly, the chances of Lego getting jumped as they deserve is not looking promising.

They would have to do that over each other's dead bodies though, wouldn't they?

This game has been much more short term and emotional than that, except for Lego and ND. Both have been isolated in some fashion or other.

To be honest? My money is on ND going after GoW big time as soon as they get their legs under them with an FP in Spain.

These guys are not members of the community. They are not here for the experience. They are here to win, maybe more so than any other team I have seen so far in this game.

People scoffed and laughed when Lux fell to the German swords. Most were playing a game to play. The Germans were playing to win. Lego is number one due to luck. ND is not far off one due to determination to win. If we are serious about looking for a win, I suggest we assume that and be in position to capitalise on it. There is no other way.

[vmxa1]

Correct me if I am wrong, but we will (or could) have Flight by the time they get Marines. Bombers will make landing a lot tougher.

They would need a massive stack to land and hold any land, i would be a nighmare without a large tech lead and allies.

[Cort Haus]

Reply from Arnelos

(copy in log)

Cort Haus,

Received your letter and I've posted it to the RP internal forum. We'll certainly look at ways that we can expand our commerical output and I think the team would be quite welcome to providing what GPT income we can to support your research effort and reach the Industrial Age at increased speed. Afterall, the primary reason for having Roleplay Team control these northern cities is that we can build them up more efficiently then GS might on your own and then supply the fruits of that labor for the alliance to use for joint benefit.

In other issues, the team is currently discussing the issue of making peace with Glory of War (who has asked for it) and New Demogyptica (which, as of yet, has not). It had been my opinion that we needed to have a discussion with Gathering Storm about the prospects for the immediate future and whether we would be fighting either of them within the next 20 or so turns, the ONLY case under which I felt it would be ok for us to maintain a state of war (it should be noted that there are a few on the team who want to maintain war regardless, however).

It has been pointed out to me by BigFree, however, that apparently your team believes the best course of action is for us to immediately sign peace treaties with both GoW and ND because you believe this may help precipitate the inevitable GoW-ND or GoW-Lego conflict at an earlier date. I agree that bringing about the inevitable fracturing of their alliance must be the primary aim of GS/RP foreign policy and your apparent belief that quick peace treaties may help to precipitate this does make some sense.

So even if it were to lead to resumed hostilities within a relatively short timespan (thus perhaps giving our chosen opponent a happiness BONUS rather than continued deficit when we redeclare on them), it may be a worthwhile strategy given that we need to fracture their alliance first. Regardless, the balance of the team still seems committed to the idea that we'd like to get some sort of lasting settlement with GoW out of these negotiations which might involve something from GoW to us in return for us agreeing to such a settlement.

I'm ready to agree to pursue that with GoW, but obviously RP Team needs to consult with Gathering Storm on the issue, given that if GoW wants anything binding into the future, that could be problematic if the future plans of the alliance lead elsewhere, nevermind that our treaty with Gathering Storm obligates us to consult you on such negotiations.

So I would very much like RP and GS to meet in chat in the near future to discuss the issues surrounding the alliance's plans for the immediate future and thus how some particulars that may come up in RP peace negotiations with GoW and ND should proceed as a result.

I honestly don't know Togas' schedule or that of anyone else, so I can't speak for them on that count. As for me, I'm likely going to be out of town from this Thursday evening through Sunday. I'll be around both before then and after then if we can chat at those times. If you want to chat this weekend, my recommendation is that you make sure you get at least one of Togas, BigFree, or Aidun in chat with you (preferably more than one along with anyone else who happens to be around).

Following that, we need to progress with any GoW negotiations and get this matter settled and behind us, as I think we agree.

It's good to hear from you guys.

- Arnelos

[Arrian]

One thing: our workers...

We are coming up on the Industrial Age. That means Steam Power, and Railroads (hopefully we're not totally ****ed by having no coal).

We're going to need some workers.

To the extent that we have any cities that are maxxed out in pop with full food boxes, we should build workers in them prior to beginning other major builds.

Adding pop to our extreme northern cities with workers now strikes me as a bad idea. In the south, by all means: the payoff should be good. But above, say, Dissidentville, it doesn't make sense to me. We're going to need those little buggers to lay rail.

How many workers do we have left?

-Arrian

[Tall Stranger]

Originally posted by notyoueither

To be honest? My money is on ND going after GoW big time as soon as they get their legs under them with an FP in Spain.

That might very well be. We certainly tried to make that danger clear to GoW when we were seeking to set up a backstab of ND. To this day, I have no idea why GoW refused to work with us to backstab ND.

My only question about this analysis is how does ND see winning the game by doing that? Taking out GoW will give them sole control of Bob, but it will also allow Lego to continue to develop its continent undisturbed. I seriously doubt that ND will be able to develop the entire Bobian continent fast enough to overcome the massive development advantage that Lego will have if it continues to enjoy a substantial period of peace. ND and GoW had to spend much of their GA's at war. Can you imagine how powerful Lego will be if they can use theirs to continue to build!!?

My view is that, unless a) the distribution of late-game strategic resources goes horribly against Lego (i.e. no oil); OR b) the combined might of ND/ GoW (with our support) do significant damage to Lego territory (would probably need to be mass-razing of multiple Lego cities) in the very near-term, there is little that can be done to prevent a Lego victory.

[Cort Haus]

Damn, I just lost a load of worker analysis ... starting again ...

[Arrian]

Ack, that sucks.

Tall Stranger, I agree with that. Lego's upcoming GA will be extremely powerful. If they do what I think they will do, and trigger it with Smith's... oh my.

As to how to deal with them, well, have you seen the stuff H_E posted about his PBEM amphibious assault on Tiberius? It was, I admit, brilliant. Unfortunately, Tiberius is a Legolander, and will undoubtably now have an intimate awareness of the dangers of such a move. Also, that move could be used on us as well!*

-Arrian

* - GoW could use it to punch through into a RP city in the far north, and then try to break through and wreck the interior. The best counter for that is to fortify the hell out of the chokepoint. By the time marines show up, though, there are going to be other options for them to strike at/from ("them" being anyone wishing to attack us, not just GoW).

[Cort Haus]

Worker Analysis

We have 22 workers.

1 is about to irrigate a tile under our unit in Estonia.

10 are irrigating and mining a mountain around Santa Ana / Diss / Inchoff, and about to be joined by another 4.

3 plus a settler are waiting for Monsoon's aqua in 500AD (2 turns from next save)

3 plus a settler are waiting for Sufas's aqua and growth in 530AD. Another is joining, plus a new one from Cyclone next turn, so maybe they could do the chop if it can be directed into Typhoon.

A third settler is waiting for Blizzards aqua and growth in 530AD.

Apart from those 3 cities, OG, Typhoon, Diss have aquas coming, and maybe Santa Ana - though I had doubts about that one.


We have one worker pump - Cyclone which is capable of growth/worker every two turns, but WF MM of nearby cities affect it sometimes. After BB's mkt (next turn) maybe we can stabilise the cycle.

I suggest we set up Sandstorm as a second worker pump, as it has a granary. Question is, do we turn the current mkt build into a settler and then pump workers, or do we build a mkt and lib first. I'm inclined to go straight for workers.

As long as cities aren't committed to long builds when we hit steam (and assuming we have coal), they can spit out workers around that time, having used them productively in cities in the meantime. Alternatives could be forestation teams or about 12 workers as Deepo suggested, or starting to fortify the seawall in preparation for Marines.