Dealing with GoW

[Cort Haus]

Status of RP

Theseus is right to suggest that the best long-term arrangement concievable with regard to RP is for them to be a productive third core in the 'Grand Alliance' and active partner in the coming struggles.

This vision is, of course, not currently in line with RP/GoW perceptions of each other. They currently wish to destroy each other, so that long term vision can only be realised after a gradual reconciliation, and frankly, a fundamental rethink by RP with regard to their, er, religious fundamentalism, and a contractual obligation by either side to drop their historical grievances. GoW will also take some persuasion that their nemesis is no longer a threat to them

GoW claim that RP were a major PITA as neighbours, who thought they were playing the AI, and would not accept legitimate aspirations of other teams. They also claim that RP will forever plot an scheme to harm GoW, and should never be allowed any independent power.

Here's what I'd like to do with RP:

Install them securely in North Stormia, complete with capital - perhaps getting them to build markets / courthouses/ harbours. After xx turns return them to Spain, to whichever cities are deemed appropriate, during which time GoW are assured that no significant military is being built, and we might receive those Stormian cities returning some production.

Meanwhile work on RP to see their future as a productive and prosperous part of what intends to be an ultimately victorious alliance. We can offer them a stake in the end-game if they step out of their vengeful mindset, and a warning that moving to destabilise our alliance would signal the end of our obligation to them, and GoW would love to do the final deed. If they do misbehave some of us might wish to take appropriate punitive measures ourselves.

At some point we have to break the good news to RP that we have a way to assure their future - which to an extent would be in their hands, albeit on our terms.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Deepo - sorry to hear you're having a rough time. Good luck with the personal life, and of course you can always seek solace here.

Thanks... it's done btw, I'm single again. And I don't like it one bit. Right now, other things are on my mind, but I'll try to catch up the following days and get more active again. I fully agree that this is a busy period, which needs attention.

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

I'll try and get a draft agreement together in the next 24 hours.

[Cort Haus]

Its taking shape ... I should have a first draft posted in the next few hours.

[Cort Haus]

GS-GoW Deal : draft 0.001

There are gaps, and there are sections which sound more like a negotiating position than an agreed one, (because there isn't an agreed one), and sections which are possibly nonsense, but it is an attempt at a start of a draft - or perhaps a start of an attempt at a draft.

This is really going to need some feedback - please.

{edit: Section Numbers added}

I. Objective

1. The two nations of Gathering Storm and Glory of War, whose sovereign interests have until recently been opposed in a titanic struggle for balance of power on the continent of Bob, have come to recognise that the stalemate in the Second Bobian War can serve the interests of neither side.
2. The source of the clash of interests - GS's MPP defense of Spain and GoW's contract to remove the RP Civ from Spanish soil must be honourably resolved.
3. A realignment of the balance of power is understood by both sides to be their only realistic chance of victory, with the ultimate need of both sides being to have enough productive land and access to resources to be able to eventually compete with the power to the west, Lego, enjoying a large productive continent to itself, and unimpeded in its economic development thus-far by conflict.
4. The primary obstacle to the aspirations of both GoW and GS, however, is recognised to be the Bobian power of Neu Demogyptia. This treaty joins the nations of Glory of War and Gathering Storm together in an alliance to remove Neu Demogyptia from the game.

II. Honouring existing contractual obligations

1. GS respects existing contract between GoW and ND requiring RP to be removed from the continent of Bob.
2. GoW respects existing alliance contract between GS and RP including Mutual Protection.
3. GS to clarify to RP that their continued protection and alliance with GS is dependent on RP making and maintaining peace with GoW as required by GS.
4. RP and GoW to mutually end all hostile and destructive intent towards the other party.

III. Conclusion of hostilities between GoW and GS

1. All Roleplay cities on Bob to be transferred to GS.
2. GS transfer selected cities on N.Stormia to RP.
3. Peace offered and accepted between all parties.

IV. Payment for Contract

1. Delivering the removal of RP from Bob, and enabling GoW to fulfil their existing contract with ND is seen as part payment from GS to GoW against the GS contract with GoW to eliminate ND from the game.
2. Agreement on land rights to make GoW the dominant landowner on Bob upon eventual defeat of ND
3. Allied participation between GS and GoW to defeat ND, with GoW taking the lion's share of the territorial spoils - giving them a large contiguous portion of Bob as far south as the jungle - would be seen as a substantial balance of the payment.
4. GS is also able, in the medium and long tem, to deliver a majority portion of the overall research effort to also constitute a portion of the net payment.

V. Envisioned Map and border agreements

- to be determined


VI. Technology

1. At the time of treaty, GS lag behind GoW in tech, but as soon as they are level, they will be able to contribute strongly to a shared, co-ordinated research program.
2. GS are have partially researched Invention, but will need the remainder of that technology and Gunpowder to (a) be aware of the location of Saltpeter deposits, (b) deliver Musketmen to the battlefield, and (c) start contributing to a joint research program.

VII. Luxuries

1. Both parties to share available luxuries with each other as far as is reasonably possible.

VIII. Strategic Resources

1. Ideally, full access by both parties should be arranged to all necessary resources - preferably under full urban control, but through trade if necessary.
2. In case of insufficient access to enough of each resource, parties with sole access should co-operate with temporary trade arrangements to allow the other side to upgrade / initiate builds.


IX. Mutual Security Guarantees

- to be determined

[Cort Haus]

Proposed note to GoW

We need to swiftly inform GoW of our contractual protection obligation to RP.

Here's a draft:

Hi Aggie,

We're working on our draft of an agreement, which we hope to be able to present to you soon. There are two points which we would like to raise now, however.

First, honouring confidentiality, we have not disclosed anything to RP regarding our current talks, therefore they are not aware of the 1-turn ceasefire. We can however advise them to stay put this turn in case they were thinking of any surprise heroics. (Actually, you'd probably like it if they did.) Obviously they have to know quite soon if things go to plan, but we'd probably all prefer to leave it until as late as possible before giving them their instructions.

Second, in the course of our internal discussions a signed document was brought to light which clarifies the nature and extent of our obligations to RP. We are obliged to protect them via MPP, but the bottom line is that nothing has really changed from our position with regard to RP as we spelled it out in the chat. The only difference is that instead of it being a self-imposed team constraint, there is actually a contract behind it - but neither Theseus nor I was aware of it at the time.

Regards,

Cort Haus
Gathering Storm.

perhaps cc MZ & UnO too. We all know how mailboxes get full.

[asleepathewheel]

That proposal looks really good to me, a lot of work .

I hope they go for it, it seems pretty equitable.

how much of N. Stormia are we giving to RP?

[Cort Haus]

Hi, Sleepy! Great to hear from you - hope you are feeling better, and thanks for the feedback

How many cities for RP? Perhaps totalling the same number as cities we get on Bob from them - four. They already have two. If we get them to build transferable infrastructure, (mkt, courthouse, harbors) for us the more the better, from our pov - we can't build much there ourselves, and we want to use their core economically - probably more for cash than research - I reckon we'll want to feed the GoW war-machine with cash for their cheap rider upgrades. More effective than our Knight upgrades. They should love it too, especially if getting the cash from the RP economy - it all fits welll for long-term plans.

I see a role for RP other than their religious crap - a possible stake in the future via economic participation, potential reconciliation with GoW and a locked three-core alliance to take down Lego.

[Theseus]

Slow down just a touch, CH... let me respond to some of the above...

[Theseus]

Re: Status of RP

First off, deep regrets, DeepO. This may sound like small beer, but if the relationship couldn't last through just one major conflict,you are prolly better off.

And she didn't play Civ, did she?

No, really, sorry. Suggestion: Amy and I watch Eddie Izzard when we are bummed out... always helps!

Re RP:

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Install them securely in North Stormia, complete with capital - perhaps getting them to build markets / courthouses/ harbours. After xx turns return them to Spain, to whichever cities are deemed appropriate, during which time GoW are assured that no significant military is being built, and we might receive those Stormian cities returning some production.

Meanwhile work on RP to see their future as a productive and prosperous part of what intends to be an ultimately victorious alliance. We can offer them a stake in the end-game if they step out of their vengeful mindset, and a warning that moving to destabilise our alliance would signal the end of our obligation to them, and GoW would love to do the final deed. If they do misbehave some of us might wish to take appropriate punitive measures ourselves.

At some point we have to break the good news to RP that we have a way to assure their future - which to an extent would be in their hands, albeit on our terms.

Exactly, and we are getting close to the need to lay this out for them. I think we may want to do it in roleplaying style... I can take a shot at that if others can work on the GoW contract.

Re GoW:

First, the draft communique to Aggie: Careful! I have said repeatedly that we DID NOT have a contract with RP. MY BAD!! I don't know WHAT I was thinking... I honestly didn't remember the contract negotiations (think of me as Ronald Reagan ).

I mostly liked the way you drafted communicating the existence of the MPP agreement, but I could see GoW reacting with disbelief that "we were not aware" of such a major agreement and document. I prolly need to send an apologetic PM admitting to my own idiocy, and sort of banking on various excuses, e.g., others on the team taking the lead at that time, my busy work schedule, honest mistake, yadayadayada.

Also, the message about current discussions with RP needs to be subtley different: GoW must believe that RP are aware of our negotiations, and will acquiesce, but that they are not aware of the cease fire. Further, that of course it is a delicate balancing act to ensure their cooperation, but that when the time is right we will 'lower the boom' and require them to agree to our plans.

I'll comment on the contract in a little bit.

How ya feelin', sleepy?

[Cort Haus]

GS Production Sites on Bob

Can anyone remind us what our plans were initially to establish production centres on Bob?

Are these plans dependent on FP / Palace-jump?

What were the palatial plans for Elipolis? Could an RP-constructed mkt/ch infrastructure help here?

And Arashi - the FP city - was that destined for some special role in all this?

I'm assuming that Lego isn't going to be part of tyhe planned operation - we'll do well to keep them neutral. So, do we try to get all the land we can get down there and hope for a GL? I doubt we want to knock down our capital. Or, do we bank on returning RP to part of it (west?) and we keep the east for slightly-productive sites?

Could Sir Ralph or someone else hot on corruption and economy advise us on our options here?

[Cort Haus]

That was the last post from me tonight - promise. I look forward to reading the discussion tomorow.

[Theseus]

I am reviewing the draft contract while looking at CH's original outline notes (which I thought were very good):

* We need to address non-aggression for the life of the contract.

* We might want to consider concrete tech payment... GoW can select which tech we research post-Gunpowder, and they get it for free?

* Re lux and strat resource sharing: The draft is fine.

* GWs?

* Let's try to define territory here and now... I'll be interested to see how they want to deal with The Alamo and Pamplona. Also, the return of RP to Spain needs to be addressed, as well as the concept of non-contiguous borders between them and GoW.

* Coup de grace on ND? This is a form of renumeration (seriously!).

* Let them come at us with a suggestion re GoW presence on Stormia. I am not a fan of this concept, and would like to see it broken out into a 'separate' negotiation, with the first salvo on our part forwarding the quote that CH had marked before.

* Completion of contract? On that note, let me suggest that this be treated like a contract, as opposed to a treaty or agreement. They are mercs after all.

* We need ratification and amendment methodologies.

* Timing?

[Theseus]

Great job, CH!!

[asleepathewheel]

yeah, I'm not sure about giving GoW land on stormia.

how does RP feel about all of this?


oh and thanks for asking, I'm doing much better, amazing surgery these days. Sutures out and healing nicely, though hurts quite a bit if I overeat. The worst part was......something went wrong with the catheter and I had to wear one for 3 days! talk about pain. Quite disturbing having a bag taped to your leg and just going with the flow, luckily my wife was not too bothered by it. I know, too much information

good work guys, I'll try to be around more.