Dealing with GoW

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
RP have already had a peace offer from GoW offering them a smallish part of Spain that RP are not satisfied with - presumably excluding SP. (see RP contact thread)

It means that GoW are even prepared to let RP hold a token part of Spain to get peace. Hmmm...

Not a peace, a stay-of execution. GoW wanted to make a temp peace with RP then come after us until we were gone, then go and finish RP.

[Theseus]

DeepO, we have a signed contract with RP?'

I don;t remember that. We should keep an archive of such things.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by DeepO
No time to comment on anything, but just one remark, guys: We DO have a signed contract with RP ensuring their existance... we can't let them willingly die. That can't be a point in the discussions, or we would be breaching a contract with them.

DeepO

How clearly does the contract define 'existance'?

Actually, such a contract would strengthen our negotiating position with GoW. They say 'we have a contract, which we have to honour'. They will have to respect a contract if we have one too - and the two are not mutually exclusive.

Eventual RP return to Spain is still on very much the table too - provided GoW can be reassured that they are neutered. If RP behave and can role play a little enlightenment that shakes off their religious fundamentalism - they could even have a stake in the game long term. If, OTOH, they are obstinate - as the Bobians claim to have found them, then we may have keep them in 'existence' at too great a price. I don't think they can afford to be obstinate.

If anyone can link to the contract it would be very useful.

[Theseus]

Would someone like to take a shot a a draft contract with GoW?

Aside from that being an agreed next step in the process, from a proactive diplo standpoint it is clear to me that we need to drive the situation and our relationship with GoW... so let's put a document in front of them.

Let me say something else, but something that also provides an opportunity:

A malaise has beset this game. We know why, no need to go into that.

Fine.

Those of you lurking... JUMP IN.

We know about production, military, the politicking which has been our flaw...

There is now another element: Energy.

C'mon, does know one else see what I am doing with GoW?

BANG BANG BANG. Can't escape, must succumb.

And, in the process, if I (and CH and OPD, to give credit where it's due) am successful, we are going to pull off an AMAZING move.

Read the chats. CH said it well, everything we know is about to beating the AI. This is about beating players! We did it once before, in an AI-semblant face off... this one is a million times more difficult. Arranging this deal with GoW, and then executing, will certainly be the most impressive maneuver in which I've been involved.

Bedtime for me... to dream of the dismantlement of ND.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Theseus
DeepO, we have a signed contract with RP?'

I don;t remember that. We should keep an archive of such things.

Ah, but we have an archive... that's why the diplo logs exist

See here:

http://apolyton.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2193922#post2193922

BTW, telling GoW we're under contract is tricky... this contract is secret.

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

From ARTICLE VII

5. The existence of this treaty, and the terms of it, are to be kept secret from all civs and individuals who are not members or citizens of Gathering Storm or Spain. Gathering Storm may grant permission to disclose the existence of this treaty or specific details of it when Gathering Storm feels it would be beneficial to do so, at which time specified details may be disclosed, but the remainder will remain secret.

Looks pretty woolly to me - I don't think this should be a problem.

There's also this clause, which seems to give GS certain discretional powers:

4. With the exception of Article I, this treaty is subject to restrictions which Gathering Storm may be under due to agreements with foreign powers. If Gathering Storm is unable to fulfill a clause of this treaty, because doing so would cause a violation of an agreement with a foreign power, then Gathering Storm will not be considered to have violated this treaty.

[Cort Haus]

I've studied the contract with RP (thanks for the link, Deepo) and reckon there are plenty of clauses in there which give us the flexibility of interpretation we need to proceed on our desired path at this time. It also gives our position more credibility with GoW.

The 'secrecy' only refers to specifics, not the existence of such a treaty. As the second clause in the contract talks happily about artillery-swapping I don't think we want to reveal any specifics either.

For the draft that Theseus mentioned, I think we need to start with a skeletal framework covering all the points before micromanaging any detail. Maybe the agenda points that were used for the chats could be the starting point.

On the team energy - it's a shame it's so quiet around here, and I'm quite surprised at the inactivity at such a critical and pivotal stage of the game. However, if people have RL commitments or are fed up, or want to play C3C that's their decision and I accept it.

I just worry a little that with so few of us making input at this time that some folks will end up feeling alienated from whatever decisions are made - and we're only trying to turn the world upside-down at the moment. To which I can only answer that a team is only as good as its active membership - and if people don't speak and do things they won't influence the teams actions.

Stormians, amazing steps have so far been made with a bold plan that seemed so far out when first floated as to seem like a stab in the dark. There's a lot more work to be done. If just six of us could put in the energy that Theseus has we can easily pull it off. With less, it can still be pulled off, though the activists will have to shoulder a heavy load. Arise, Stormians, and smell the coffee!

----------------------------

Time for a funny quote :

"Today is not a day for soundbites, but I feel the hand of history on our shoulder"
(Tony Blair at Dublin Castle on the'Good Friday Agreement'.)

[Cort Haus]

Structure of RP Contracts

FYI - here are the article items in the RP treaty. We might want to consider this in part for a model for the GoW treaty. Or not. An Alternative approach would be to build a new structure based on the priorities of the intended GoW agreement.

Article I - Non-Aggression
Article II - Sharing of Luxuries
Article III - Partnership in Technological Research
Article IV - Wonders of the World
Article V - Mutual Protection and Military Alliance
Article VI - Exchange of Territory
Article VII - Additional Agreements
Article VIII - Ratification
Article IX - Ammendments

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
On the team energy - it's a shame it's so quiet around here, and I'm quite surprised at the inactivity at such a critical and pivotal stage of the game. However, if people have RL commitments or are fed up, or want to play C3C that's their decision and I accept it.

Well, again, my apologies. It's not that I'm fed up with the game, it's partly burn-out, and partly RL... and RL isn't very rosy atm. First major crisis with my fresh g/f... if things continue like this I might find time for GS again a lot sooner then I hoped for.

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

The GoW issues

This list provisionally covers the areas of the contract which need addressing. It's a first draft of a list - there are doubtless further areas:

* Evacuation of RP to conclude current GS-GoW Hostilities
* Future policy re: RP
* Duration of agreement : Contract on ND - or locked Alliance till * Lego eliminated too.
* Payment for Contract/s
* Envisioned Map and border agreements
* Technology
* Luxuries
* Strategic Resources
* Mutual Security Guarrantees
* Possible UN Vote
* Other end-game considerations
* Development of Trust and Burying of Hatchets

[Cort Haus]

Sticking Points

Major sticking points and tricky issues needing discussion and policy :

* GoW beachead on Stormia

* GoW desire Pamplona

* GS need levelling up in tech

* Map / Borders, GS strength on Bob and Power Balance

* Initial, medium and long term status of RP

* Saltpeter question

* Mutual Lego threat, and Lego's entangled obligations

[Cort Haus]

I have to go to the pub now to watch England v Denmark. More thoughts, detail and analysis later.

Deepo - sorry to hear you're having a rough time. Good luck with the personal life, and of course you can always seek solace here.

[Cort Haus]

Saltpeter

We have been led to believe that we have no saltpeter, however, we cannot be sure that this is the case. The original source for the 'rumour' may have been Lego (I'll check this).

GoW are very keen to have Pamplona. This may be because of Saltpeter in the area - perhaps in the Alamo boundaries too.

Aggie> question" do you know where SP is located
Aggie> on Stormia and BOB
Aggie> i ahve that impression from earlier in this chat
Cort> Well my current guess is under those 4 ND Muskets by the
Alamo,
Aggie> ok
Cort> but all we really know is that we've been told we haven't
got any on Stormia
Aggie> really, who said such a thing and are you sure they tell
the truth.

Until we know where the saltpeter is, we're playing in the dark. If we knew where it was - and we did have some on Stormia but Pamplona/Alamo was GoW's only possible source it would change our poition somewhat. Maybe we could say to GoW "we can consider conceding Pamplona to you if we can see proof that it is not the only SP source available to us".

[Cort Haus]

Security

Both sides have elements who profoundly distrust the other - and both sides have floated security devices that the other side finds hard to accept.

GoW are seeking a foothold on Stormia as an insurance policy against a GS backstab, and GS have sought some up-front tech for their insurance against a GoW BS.

Neither side like the other's idea - so maybe the ideas can be traded against each other. Another angle for us on the tech issue - we can offer them equivalent payments in tech later on , once we've caught up and can excercise some economic power.

Vulture posted the following argument against the GoW beach-head on Stormia which we could perhaps relay to GoW in some form, as they sent us lists of problems from their PoV.

As for a beach head on Stormia, I'm very much against that. It would put GoW in too strong a position relative to us, militarily. If the murder of ND goes ahead, we end up with an empire more or les equally split on two areas of land (okay, land on Bob may be more scarce than that). GoW would have their land in a single mass. From this point on, they either have 3 move attackers (Riders, Cavalry) or railroads, so they can move forces internally with great speed. Or forces have to be split between two essentially isolated areas - naval transport will be slow relative to GoWs mobility, and even a reasonable sized navy on their part could make shipping hazardous (even if 3/4 transports make it across, we are still losing a lot of troops for very little investment by GoW). True, they have to worry about having to defend a land border, but we have to worry about defending two seperate areas. A beach-head city in the north just gives them even more of a threat (if they get a one turn crossing, we won't even be able to see their ships moving, so we won't know where their troops are massing). Not a good idea from our point of view.

[Cort Haus]

Maps and Borders

GoW may have been hoping that our proposed deal would give them all of Bob. We have reminded them that we all need enough territory to compete with Lego, and suggested that a border somewhere along the line of the jungle might be their southern perimeter.

We may need some 'coloured-in' maps to illustrate proposed terrain, and there may be some work to do to persuade GoW of our needs for production sites without them claiming a requirement for a proportionally equivalent area of land on our own continent