RP, 10ad

[Aeson]

I don't like the idea of putting RP units out in the open yet. If I'm ND, I kill anything I see on flats knowing that they are headed for a walled size 7 city where the odds will be much worse for me.

It gives ND shots at killing units at the best possible odds they can get. Once Knights (RP and/or GS) are around to clean things up, it's more viable. Relying on slow movement units to clean up units with retreat could get nasty real quick.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Aeson
Once Knights (RP and/or GS) are around to clean things up, it's more viable.

When will that be, our knights next turn and rp's the turn after?

[nbarclay]

Is there enough in Pamplona to hold against ten or conceivably more Ansars if RP pulls three pikes and three MedInfs out? And what would RP have left to attack the surviving Ansars with on their following turn? It might be worth the risk of trying to reinforce Zaragoza if enough units can be spared without compromising Pamplona's defenses, especially considering that proper positioning would force ND to scout into RP's territory just to find out that reinforcements are being moved (although Ansars have enough movement to duck in, out, and back to their base city).

If we move knights into position, we could contribute three knights to the counterattack against ND's survivors from attacking the stack. But we'd be exposing our knights to a possible ND counterattack in the process. Also, am I remembering right that ND will have a road at Santiago 6, letting them reinforce the bulk of their retreating Ansars with slow-movers (at least one a vet pike) from that tile?

At the moment, I'm skeptical about the idea of trying to reinforce Zaragoza, but I'm not inclined to write it off completely.

[Shiber]

It says in the civilopedia that fast units can retreat unless fighting another fast unit. But can 3-move units still retreat if they're fighting 2-move units? Do we know for sure?

[Aeson]

RP's in 3 more turns (this turn we can't give them Chivalry, next they upgrade, then they can move). 3 of ours could be in position next turn (we could move them to by Pamplona this turn). Depends on what GoW decides to do with it's stack.

It would be better to wait on ours in (almost) any case until we have Pikes close enough to gaurd the Knights after their attack though.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Shiber
It says in the civilopedia that fast units can retreat unless fighting another fast unit. But can 3-move units still retreat if they're fighting 2-move units? Do we know for sure?

can't retreat, I've never seen it. I could be wrong, but I haven't had any 3 moves retreat from a 2 move.

edit: wait, wait a minute, I'm sure I've seen modern armors retreat from mech infantry. .....but never cavalry from other horses....

[Aeson]

3 move units can't retreat from 2 move units.

[asleepathewheel]

Pamplona currently has (I think)

10 pikes
5 infantry
3 horses
7 cats

(from the rp10bc thread-pamp +toledo +ichon)

Zaragosa currently has: (assuming no losses this turn, need updated list)

4 pikes
6 infantry
1 cat

If this were my game, I would roll the dice at this point and move all but the horses in Pamplona, to Leon 6. The horses, I would move to Zaragosa. I would pull 3 or so infantries to Leon 6 as well. And I would recapture Leon the next turn.

Why?

Nd is constructing a road from the north down to leon. It will be connected, I think, after next turn (but I would figure that out, how long 2 spanish workers take to build a road through grassland, and if its built this turn, I would sacrifice the cat in Z and bombard the road the next square down) While there is no road, their ansars are stuck in leon without any defensive units. They are also still likely recovering from prior use. Now is the time to eliminate the bulk of their offensive army. Delay in attacking will allow the slowmover defense to catch up and fortify their positions.

[nbarclay]

Does anyone know exactly what's working on a road at Santiago 6 and when they started? Keep in mind that roads are available for use a turn sooner in PBEM than they are in SP; in PBEM, workers already assigned to a job seem to make their move at the beginning of the turn instead of at the end.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Does anyone know exactly what's working on a road at Santiago 6 and when they started? Keep in mind that roads are available for use a turn sooner in PBEM than they are in SP; in PBEM, workers already assigned to a job seem to make their move at the beginning of the turn instead of at the end.

We know that its two spanish workers. The question is, were they captured on that square, thus starting a road on the first turn of the war, or were they in santiago when captured and then moved over. I think the latter is correct.

I think, I think that the sequence was, we accepted Santiago in 10BC. ND then attacked and captured the city and moved the workers over. They started working 10Ad, I think. So this next turn will be the 2nd full turn of roading. Again, I think thats what it is.

[notyoueither]

Except they were captured in Leon on turn one of the war, not Santiago.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Except they were captured in Leon on turn one of the war, not Santiago.

Duh!

Does that change the sequence?

[notyoueither]

No. Last turn captured and moved. This turn is turn 1 of 3 for road building.

[nbarclay]

What would happen if RP would arrange to have six pikes (including two from NM when they give it to us if both units there are pikes and one from Salamanca) and three horsemen in Pamplona and bring forward seven pikes, five MedInfs, and seven cats to threaten Leon? If ND makes the mistake of thinking RP left Pamplona unguarded, they'll find themselves unable to take it without some pretty impressive luck, and then RP's stack can take Leon and come back for the Ansars with the help of three GS knights. If ND goes after the stack on open ground, pikes with cat support should be able to give about as good as they get cost for cost even allowing for Ansars' ability to retreat, and retreating Ansars will be out of action for a turn or two. That still leaves ND the option of going after Zaragoza, but we can't do much about that no matter how we handle things - other than set up to take it back reasonably quickly, which having RP regain control of Leon would help do.

I'm not saying I think this is necessarily what we should recommend to RP, but it seems like it's worth considering. If ND does take one of the two baits - either bypassing the main stack to hit Pamplona or hitting the stack itself - that should assure Zaragoza's safety for a while. But they may figure that at least a large part of the stack outside Leon came from Zaragoza, making them more likely to hit Zaragoza.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by nbarclay
What would happen if RP would arrange to have six pikes (including two from NM when they give it to us if both units there are pikes and one from Salamanca) and three horsemen in Pamplona and bring forward seven pikes, five MedInfs, and seven cats to threaten Leon? If ND makes the mistake of thinking RP left Pamplona unguarded, they'll find themselves unable to take it without some pretty impressive luck, and then RP's stack can take Leon and come back for the Ansars with the help of three GS knights. If ND goes after the stack on open ground, pikes with cat support should be able to give about as good as they get cost for cost even allowing for Ansars' ability to retreat, and retreating Ansars will be out of action for a turn or two. That still leaves ND the option of going after Zaragoza, but we can't do much about that no matter how we handle things - other than set up to take it back reasonably quickly, which having RP regain control of Leon would help do.

I'm not saying I think this is necessarily what we should recommend to RP, but it seems like it's worth considering. If ND does take one of the two baits - either bypassing the main stack to hit Pamplona or hitting the stack itself - that should assure Zaragoza's safety for a while. But they may figure that at least a large part of the stack outside Leon came from Zaragoza, making them more likely to hit Zaragoza.

I like that plan. I totally missed before when discussing similar prospects, that nd could still reach pamplona by bypassing the stack next to leon