RP, 10ad

[nbarclay]

The Hanging Gardens are a hundred extra shields - the equivalent of a knight and a pike - and become obsolete with Steam Power. And the Great Wall could be pretty useful for holding with a relatively small force on one front while pressing an attack forward on another - especially against enemies that don't seem to share our interest in catapults.

[Arrian]

Fair 'nough.

So this upcoming turn we load our 2nd wave?

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Oh, damn, look at the time... I really need to hit the sack.

You guys are amazing... I logged on figuring everyone would be asleep, and I could quietly catch up and throw in a post or two before bed. Little did I know that GS is the team that doesn't sleep.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Nice battle RP fought... 1 MI for 2 pikes+3 MI is a very good ratio. I hope the rest of their troops are still in well enough condition to keep the Ansars out.

An idea: I don't think RP is researching anything. And we can give Chivalry in 2 turns (give it the turn after this one, they receive it 2 turns after that). In order to get them to save 1 turn in upgrading, they should set their research to Chivalry. When they get it from us, they will be able to open the F6 screen, go to F3 from there, right click their horses, upgrade them, and use them in the same turn. Similarly to changing wonder builds at the last possible moment, this 'trick' catches the horses before they play their turn, meaning the upgrade doesn't cost any movement.

In order to do so, RP has to keep their horses at at least 1 MP remaining... if they have used all, they can't be upgraded. And they should end their turn in a city with barracks (and we probably have to give them the gold to do it)

DeepO

[Shiber]

Sounds like a plan DeepO!
Btw, one Spanish MI (the Knights of St. John, I think they're called) is now Elite.

[DeepO]

The knights of St. John... heh... on Malta they fought without their horses (not that difficult if you'r defending your own walls), but when invading the Turks they had horses for sure... I hope they're willing to roleplay some name changing once they get Chivalry

DeepO

[Theseus]

Good call DeepO... I was not aware of that upgrade mechanic.

So, RP did not move on Leon? A pity, it was a good idea... keep the pressure on.

Also, I do not see that they pillaged the iron at Vigo7, nor examine the FoW south of Vigo.

The save should be here.

[Shiber]

Opening...

[nbarclay]

Theseus, too many of RP's pikes were regular rather than vet for them to defend Pamplona adequately and still have enough vet pikes in a Leon stack to absorb the Ansar attacks. Once ND started hitting MedInfs or wounded pikes, barring excellent luck for RP, the balance of losses would have shifted clearly in ND's favor.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Theseus
Good call DeepO... I was not aware of that upgrade mechanic.

So, RP did not move on Leon? A pity, it was a good idea... keep the pressure on.

I agree, I was pushing for it, as was Bigfree, but after the victory at Z, I guess the discussion was over, let ND make the next move. A large mistake, IMHO, when you have the enemy down, you have to kill them. moving the stack next to leon would have really crushed their advance. I think its wrong to say that Pamplona could be threatened. Could be attacked yes, taken, impossible. remember that since we have NM, another 2 units (?) are now sitting in Pamplona.

This is being played way too conservatively for my tastes. We have a road being constructed currently that would allow units to city hop down to their new holdings without being seen. We need to kill leon before that road is up and they can bring in the pikes. Why wouldn't you take a shot at half of their offensive army when it is not defended by pikes? And, we have a 14 rider stack inching its way through the jungle. We need to wrap this side up before they get here, as 14 riders are quite formidable, much stronger than what Nd has thrown at us thus far.

Sigh. Of course, that's why I'm not in charge of anything, I tend to be a little....imprudent when it comes to such matters

Originally posted by Theseus
Also, I do not see that they pillaged the iron at Vigo7, nor examine the FoW south of Vigo.

both were done iron cut, nothing in the south seen

[nbarclay]

Asleep, RP would not have gotten shots at the bulk of ND's offensive forces; not unless ND was completely stupid. Rather, RP would merely have walked into an undefended city (or undefended ruins of a city) after having a large percentage of its forces hammered by ND troops on terms favorable to ND. Yes, taking Leon would have provided potential to cut off ND's ability to reinforce with pikes. But can ND bring in enough pikes to make as much difference as ten GS knights would? And if they do, consider how bare of defenders their homeland will be once those units are destroyed; we'll have to fight their pikes somewhere sooner or later anyhow, and Leon isn't exactly the greatest fortress in the history of the world for ND to use its pikes in.

[Aeson]

Play the odds... Pikes on flats are dead to Ansars. Definitely Med Inf are too. In foreign and neutral territory they can never catch the Ansars anyways.

[notyoueither]

MilOps Chat

Session Start: Sat Jul 26 20:56:37 2003
Session Ident: #MilOps
[20:56] * Now talking in #MilOps
[20:56] * Retrieving #MilOps info...
[20:56] * nye sets mode: +nps
[20:57] * nye sets mode: +k Dead
[20:57] * nye sets mode: -k Dead
[20:57] * nye sets mode: +k Bismarck
[21:01] * asleepath has joined #MilOps
[21:01] *asleepath* hi
[21:01] *nye* hi
[21:01] *nye* i sent the channel to dejon
[21:01] *asleepath* great
[21:02] *asleepath* I'll probably just be lurking for most of this, I'm trying to get some studying done
[21:02] * dejon has joined #milOps
[21:02] *dejon* Howdy doodle
[21:03] *asleepath* hey
[21:03] *nye* hi, dejon
[21:03] *dejon* How's your noodle?
[21:03] *nye* good plan re zaragoza 1
[21:03] * nye sets mode: +o dejon
[21:04] * nye sets mode: +o asleepath
[21:04] *dejon* yeah, no bonuses for them there - may as well whack them without leaving the city
[21:04] *nye* if the cat hits the first pike, that may very well leave that one the only one left
[21:05] *dejon* doubt they'd attack alone - likely going to be a coordinated attack with ansars next turn
[21:05] *nye* i will munch some m&m's to placate the rng gods
[21:05] *dejon* yes, that would be cool (cat)
[21:05] *nye* nathan had a radical idea, but i'm not sure about it
[21:05] *nye* maybe slow and steady is the way to go
[21:06] *nye* btw...
[21:06] *dejon* without knowing the idea, I'd say we have to play conservative right now, yes
[21:07] *nye* can the worker near vigo move 2 to see if there are ansars 2 2 1 of vigo?
[21:07] *nye* nathan's idea...
[21:07] *dejon* hmm..
[21:08] *dejon* don't really need the south iron road any quicker
[21:08] *nye* What would happen if RP would arrange to have six pikes (including two from NM when they give it to us if both units there are pikes and one from Salamanca) and three horsemen in Pamplona and bring forward seven pikes, five MedInfs, and seven cats to threaten Leon? If ND makes the mistake of thinking RP left Pamplona unguarded, they'll find themselves unable to take it without some pretty impressive luck, and then RP's stack can take Leon and come back for the Ansars with the help of three GS knights. If ND goes after the stack on open ground, pikes with cat support should be able to give about as good as they get cost for cost even allowing for Ansars' ability to retreat, and retreating Ansars will be out of action for a turn or two. That still leaves ND the option of going after Zaragoza, but we can't do much about that no matter how we handle things - other than set up to take it back reasonably quickly, which having RP regain
[21:08] *nye* ...
[21:08] *nye* I'm not saying I think this is necessarily what we should recommend to RP, but it seems like it's worth considering. If ND does take one of the two baits - either bypassing the main stack to hit Pamplona or hitting the stack itself - that should assure Zaragoza's safety for a while. But they may figure that at least a large part of the stack outside Leon came from Zaragoza, making them more likely to hit Zaragoza.
[21:08] *nye* ...
[21:09] *nye* it seemed like a good idea to throw out there
[21:09] *nye* so i have
[21:09] *nye* it is you army and your cities though
[21:09] *dejon* quirky
[21:09] *asleepath* its ballsy
[21:09] *asleepath* and unexpected
[21:09] *asleepath* the reason is that ND will have the road cnnected soon and be able to bring in the defense and slowmovers
[21:10] *asleepath* we set something up now and we can take out most of their ansars
[21:10] *dejon* I was kinda looking forward to them attacking Pamplona and getting a nice surprise - but they may expect many forces there now, with all of GoW's talk in the main forum about city gifts and their results
[21:10] *nye* yeah
[21:11] *nye* we may just want to hit the stack at z 1 a couple times and judge results
[21:11] * Trip[civ] has joined #MilOps
[21:11] *nye* if we can get the mi's then maybe that stalls nd's offensive for another turn or two
[21:11] *nye* allowing some gs knights to get near the action for leon
[21:12] *nye* btw, what is in that nd stack 6 of santiago?
[21:12] *dejon* um, 50/50 pike/medinf i think - I'll check (have to reload civ3/save)
[21:13] *asleepath* they're moving to Leon after the road is built,I'd guess
[21:13] *asleepath* NYE: did we figure out when that road would be finished?
[21:14] *nye* i think the turn after next for nd, sleepy
[21:14] *asleepath* ok, good
[21:14] *nye* if those are 2 spanish workers
[21:15] *dejon* the stack 6 of Sant: 1 Pike, 1 MedInf, 2 workers, 1 Scout
[21:16] *nye* the workers are spanish?
[21:16] *dejon* nope
[21:16] *dejon* Oh, sorry, yes
[21:16] *nye* nd?
[21:16] *nye* that should be 6/2=3 turns for the road
[21:17] *dejon* ND workers, from us
[21:17] *dejon* they say "(RP)" in their names
[21:17] *Trip[civ]* they're captured RP Workers under the control of ND :P
[21:18] *nye* ok. arabia is rel mil, right?
[21:18] *Trip[civ]* rel exp
[21:18] *nye* no. rel, exp
[21:18] *Trip[civ]* 7 vet Med Infs
[21:18] *Trip[civ]* charge!
[21:26] * nbarclay has joined #MilOps
[21:26] *dejon* The best unit split for the ballsy option would probably be 7 cats, 6 medinf(all vets), and 6 pike (5 vet, 1 reg) - leaving 4 pike(reg) and 1 medinf (reg) in Pamplona, which will then also get another pike and medinf from NM
[21:26] *nbarclay* Hi everyone.
[21:26] *dejon* Hi nathan
[21:27] *nbarclay* I gather New Madrid has one pike and one MedInf?
[21:27] *dejon* yes
[21:28] *dejon* both reg
[21:28] *nbarclay* What does ND have next to Zaragoza?
[21:28] *dejon* 2 pikes, 4 medinf
[21:29] *dejon* 1 of each is reg, rest vet
[21:29] *nye* if we do the leon gambit, will not nd just take the opportunity to deal a blow to the Spanish army at zaragoza and leave leon to be retaken?
[21:30] *nbarclay* Is the vet injured? What's showing on the screenshot seems to be a regular.
[21:30] *dejon* the vet pike is 3/4, yes
[21:30] *nbarclay* And your cat hasn't attacked yet?
[21:31] *dejon* nye - I expect them to go after Zara this turn anyways - that stack isn't window dressing
[21:31] *dejon* not yet
[21:31] *dejon* I'm just looking at the save, not playing it (so far)
[21:31] *nye* i agree, dejon
[21:31] *nye* the focus should be to take advantage of where they are giving advantage
[21:32] *nye* leon would be a better bet when you have some knights, and there are gs knights around
[21:32] *dejon* The Q is, do we want them to attack the mostly reg pikes in Zara, or a Leon stack with vet pikes and cats?
[21:34] *nye* good q, that
[21:35] *asleepath* I think we should strike leon (or move to strike) now. Otherwise, they will have a pipeline to deliver infantry and pikes and will be harder to take
[21:35] *asleepath* from leon they have a forward base for the ansars, and now they are vulnerable, but they won't be for long
[21:35] *nye* 39.9 a vet ansar wins vs reg pike forted in z
[21:35] *nbarclay* How much has the question of whether to attack the stack outside Zaragoza been dicussed? If such an attack is launched, further decisions for what to do during the turn may depend on its outcome.
[21:36] *nye* 60.4 a vet ansar kills a vet pike in the field
[21:36] *dejon* nye - thanks for the #s
[21:36] *nye* thank cfc
[21:36] *nbarclay* NYE, does that 60.4 take into account a cat in the stack?
[21:36] *nye* no
[21:36] *nye* no cats factored in
[21:37] *nye* 43.7% a reg ansar kills a vet pike in the field
[21:37] *dejon* nathan - I think we'll hit them at least a couple of times to gauge the effectiveness
[21:38] *dejon* wow, that's a large swing due to the cats
[21:38] *nye* no, can't directly factor the cat.
[21:38] *nye* if it missed, it is 60.4
[21:38] *nye* if it hits it is 43.7
[21:38] *dejon* ah, I see
[21:38] *nye* vulture could factor the cats
[21:39] *nye* i'm not sure what sorcery he uses
[21:39] *nbarclay* Last I remember, I don't think Vulture had that capability.
[21:39] *nye*
[21:39] *nye* oh, the cats. not sorcery
[21:39] *nye*
[21:39] *nbarclay* I think he just estimated based on a guess at the odds of the cat's hitting.
[21:39] *dejon*
[21:40] *nbarclay* If you figure the odds of the cat hitting at roughly 50-50, the odds of the vet pike standing up to the Ansar would be roughly 50-50.
[21:41] *dejon* Let's keep in mind that aside from the Zara stack, ND likely has about 7-8 Ansars undamaged in the area (guestimate)
[21:41] *asleepath* did leon have a barracks when it was captured?
[21:41] *dejon* no
[21:41] *asleepath* great
[21:41] *dejon* none of those cities had a barracks
[21:41] *nbarclay* Of course with enough Ansars, ND would eventually break through MedInfs and/or injured pikes.
[21:42] *dejon* Optimally, we want to engage those Ansars before a reinforcements group of ansars arrive
[21:43] *nbarclay* My guess is that reinforcement Ansars are likely to arrive in 1's and 2's, not in a group.
[21:43] *nbarclay* At least while ND controls the territory they'd be moving through.
[21:44] *dejon* A Leon stack may also have the result of making ND abandon(raze) Leon while attacking Zara
[21:44] *nye* true. i think they would take the opportunity to smash the spanish army and forget the city
[21:44] *nye* whereever they thought they could do the most damage
[21:45] *nye* attack z, or attack leon stack and retreat
[21:45] *nye* abandon leon if necessary
[21:45] *dejon* or skirt leon stack and attack Pamp
[21:46] *nye* that would be the only good reult for us
[21:46] *nye* or would it?
[21:46] *dejon* not really
[21:46] *nbarclay* If they think they still like their odds of winning the war, I don't think they're likely to raze Leon. It would be very useful to them once they can retake it.
[21:46] *dejon* 5 pikes, 2 med inf left in Pamp
[21:47] *nye* true, nathan, but they could witdraw from it to protect units
[21:47] *nye* can we do the z attack and the leon gambit?
[21:47] *nbarclay* If they're expecting to win the war, the logical move would be to leave the city undefended and plan on retaking it after their Ansars heal and maybe after some slow-mover reinforcements arrive.
[21:48] *nye* or, can rp do it
[21:48] *dejon* But with an agressive move from us (leon stack) and the GS/RP exchanges so far, they may decide this isn't a war they can fight right now, and raze&run
[21:48] *nye* do you think leon is a good idea, dejon?
[21:48] *dejon* It's worth consideration - but I doubt Togas will approve
[21:48] *nbarclay* Agreed about the possibility that ND might decide the war isn't looking so good right now.
[21:49] *nbarclay* A lot would depend on how their attacks in their turn go.
[21:50] *dejon* if they attack the leon stack or Zara, yes. If they go after Pamp, I think they have to commit everything.
[21:50] *dejon* I likely would, anyways
[21:51] *dejon* For a capital, after a large stack may have left it
[21:51] *nbarclay* They could easily break off when the number of units known to be in Pamplona (including injured) is greater than the number of Ansars they have left to attack it.
[21:52] *nbarclay* But I can't see attacking Pamplona and breaking off before then.
[21:52] *dejon* not with the numbers we're speculating they have
[21:53] *nbarclay* What numbers are you speculating?
[21:53] *dejon* 7-8 healthy ansars in the area
[21:53] *nye* they started with 10, yes?
[21:53] *dejon* yes
[21:53] *nye* 1 to kill the pike
[21:54] *nye* 1 to kill the road razer
[21:54] *dejon* I'm guessing 2-3 got damaged, are forted or have headed north for quicker healing
[21:54] *nye* 2 to take leon
[21:54] *nye* 7 or 8 without reinforcements is reasonable
[21:55] *dejon* the reinforcements may come after they rebuild the road E of Sant.
[21:55] *nye* they know you lack knights, so the ones who attacked leon could have healed a turn by now
[21:57] *nbarclay* It seems to me that the thing to do right now is start the attack on Zaragoza (beginning with a cat bombard) and see how it goes. Then we'll have a clearer picture for further planning.
[21:57] *nbarclay* (On the ND troops outside Zaragoza)
[21:57] *dejon* agreed
[21:58] *dejon* on the coordination front, we'll gift NM this turn, along with luxes and Monarchy
[21:58] *dejon* luxes=Ivory
[21:58] *dejon* your settler lands next turn?
[21:58] *nbarclay* Yes.
[21:59] *nbarclay* And builds the city the following turn.
[21:59] *dejon* we have a galley along there - is it okay to move it 99 this turn?

[notyoueither]

[22:00] *dejon* to NM 336
[22:02] *nbarclay* Is there a reason why you want it that particular place? You'd only be using two of its three movement points.
[22:02] *dejon* we can't move the full 3 this turn - you're in the way
[22:03] *dejon* want to go run interference with GoW galleys
[22:03] *dejon* I suppose NM 36 would be no different, if that's out of your paths
[22:04] *nye* 3 3 6 should be fine
[22:04] *nye* nathan?
[22:05] *nbarclay* The question is where we want to unload our galley from. I'd been thinking in terms of unloading from NM 3-3-6 because that would leave our galley closest to our territory.
[22:06] *nye* well, if we don;t need 3 6, that's fine too then
[22:06] *nbarclay* But if we'd land from NM 3-6, that would let us put the pike sharing the galley with our settler directly on a road.
[22:07] *nbarclay* Then again, when the city is built, we'll have a road on NM 3-3, so unloading at 3-6 would put the pike only one tile closer to the action.
[22:07] *nbarclay* (I'm trying to think this through on the fly.)
[22:08] *dejon* take your time - Togas isn't online yet (we'll play the turn once he is)
[22:09] *dejon* I'm just glad I asked
[22:12] *nbarclay* I think I'd rather you move your galley to N* 3-6 and leave 3-3-6 for us to unload. That would give us the option of unloading second-wave units from that galley directly into our city,
[22:13] *nbarclay* and unloading third-wave units directly into the city would make up the distance lost unloading second-wave troops into the city.
[22:14] *nbarclay* Of course if we'd try to land a fourth wave, that might be slowed down a turn, but we won't have much left to land by then anyhow.
[22:15] *nbarclay* Thanks for asking.
[22:15] *dejon* Are these "waves" like tsunamis? Does GS name their stacks like Hurricanes? "Hurricane Nathan breached the shores of Bob today"
[22:15] *nbarclay* I'm hoping ND will see some similarity between our waves and tsunamis, anyhow.
[22:16] *dejon*
[22:16] *nbarclay* No, we don't name them. At least not until they produce leaders.
[22:17] *dejon* Just noticed our Mfg. Goods and Prod. dropped down to 5th
[22:17] *nbarclay* Ouch! Losing all those cities (including the couple you've given us) hurts.
[22:18] *dejon* We're not actually at war with GoW yet either
[22:18] *dejon* They couldn't be in GA yet
[22:18] *nbarclay* I'd noticed that. They're complaining about our interfering with their war when they aren't even officially at war yet.
[22:19] *nbarclay* It's nice having ND's and GoW's GA's staggered a bit. It reduces the time we have to worry about both of them in GA's at once.
[22:19] *dejon* What was their response to your request for them to stay outside your cultural borders?
[22:20] *nbarclay* By the way, ND's GA puts them roughly on par with Lego, but still below us in GNP and Mfg. Goods.
[22:20] *asleepath* GoW and ND could always have a two turn war-ND attack a rider with a warrior then offer peace accepted
[22:20] *dejon* true
[22:20] *asleepath* two turns being the nd turn and the gow turn
[22:20] *asleepath* you might consider cutting the iron of vigo with that pike
[22:21] *dejon* But then he's not forted
[22:22] * dejon wonders when Togas and Arnelos are going to get online
[22:23] *asleepath* true. they aren't getting the iron while he is there, and would they bother trying to dislodge him?
[22:23] *asleepath* I would cut it just to be safe however.
[22:23] *asleepath* but thats me, you guys seem to be averse to cutting roads
[22:24] *nbarclay* If ND finishes their road from their core, they have iron from there whether Vigo's supply is still available to them or not.
[22:24] *dejon* ND has two Iron anyways
[22:25] *nbarclay* The pike is probably most valuable staying forted and daring ND to spend units trying to dislodge him.
[22:25] *dejon* cutting the Vigo one only prevents them trading to someone in addition to GoW, like Vox maybe
[22:26] *nbarclay* No Astronomy = no trades to Vox.
[22:26] *nbarclay* (Except for us, of course. )
[22:26] *dejon* well there you go - no point in cutting it then
[22:26] *dejon* And little point in them attacking the Pike too then
[22:26] *asleepath* no, they don' have iron in their new cities
[22:27] *asleepath* you'll see spears instead of pikes
[22:27] *asleepath* at least in leon
[22:27] *nbarclay* Vox has an iron deposit three tiles from their new capital anyhow.
[22:28] *nbarclay* But when ND finishes the road at Zaragoza 4-1, Leon will be hooked up to their main network.
[22:28] *asleepath* and we're going to let them connect that road?
[22:29] *nbarclay* How are we going to stop them?
[22:29] *asleepath* I would use the catapult in Z to bombard leon 8 this turn or next and eat the cost
[22:29] *nbarclay* Yes, if we go with the plan to retake Leon, the forces from that could stop them.
[22:29] *dejon* We can't stop it this turn or next, anyways
[22:30] * Arnelos has joined #MilOps
[22:30] *Arnelos* there we go
[22:30] *dejon* Hi Arnelos
[22:30] *Arnelos* hey
[22:30] *dejon* bombarding roads is a low-% gamble though
[22:31] *nbarclay* Asleep, I don't think it's even close to worth handing a cat over to ND just to take a CHANCE that the bombard will succeed in cutting a road.
[22:31] *asleepath* ok, then sacrifice a horse next turn. I'm saying that road is bad news
[22:31] *nbarclay* Hi Arnelos.
[22:32] *Arnelos* hello
[22:32] *dejon* asleep - i see your point
[22:32] *nbarclay* Once GS has ten knights in the area, who will the road be bad news for?
[22:32] *nbarclay* I can't see throwing away a unit for it.
[22:33] *nbarclay* Especially not a unit with essentially zero ability to defend itself.
[22:33] *dejon* I didn't say we'll do it, just that I understand the reasoning - we'll discuss it
[22:33] *nbarclay* I understand the reasoning too. I'm just discussing it myself.
[22:34] *asleepath* once the road is completed, we'll have no clue whats in that city, they can city hop all the way down with all units, not just ansars
[22:34] *dejon* Our horses ARE useless until we get Chiv anyways
[22:34] *asleepath* I might be a bit over agressive here, I will admit
[22:34] *asleepath* you'll get chivalry in two turns
[22:34] *dejon* 2?!? Cool
[22:35] *dejon* I thought it was further away
[22:36] *asleepath* I think it was two turns, hmm...
[22:37] *nbarclay* Aeson thinks it's turn 132, which would mean our third turn from now.
[22:39] *asleepath* according to the trade thread in the forum, it expires t. 131, so we'll have to double check
[22:39] * dejon sets mode: +oo Arnelos nbarclay
[22:40] *Arnelos* sounds good
[22:42] *nbarclay* I doublechecked (reloading the old save) and we did in fact get Chivalry on Turn 121.
[22:43] *nbarclay* So it's a question of interpretation whether a 10-turn NDA would allow us to initiate a trade/gift on our turn 121 or our turn 132.
[22:43] *nbarclay* We may want to go back and check how GoW handled that timing on Feudalism.
[22:43] *nbarclay* (131 or 132)
[22:44] *nbarclay* But if we give RP Chivalry on Turn 131, we'll have gone 10 turns in which we could have initiated trades involving Chivalry but didn't.
[22:45] *asleepath* does ND have engineering, I assumed they did
[22:46] *nye* vulture has nt on chivalry expiring turn 131
[22:46] *dejon* I've been making that assumption (Eng)
[22:46] * nbarclay has quit IRC (Quit: IceChat IRC Client - Download at www.IceChat.net)
[22:47] *nye* oops
[22:48] * nbarclay has joined #MilOps
[22:49] *dejon* wb nathan
[22:49] *nye* there he is
[22:49] * nbarclay has quit IRC (Quit: IceChat IRC Client - Download at www.IceChat.net)
[22:49] *dejon* and there he goes
[22:49] *asleepath* hmm
[22:52] *Arnelos* anyone know when Togas might be coming on or when he/we are going to play the save?
[22:53] *Arnelos* guess not
[22:53] *Arnelos* well, I gotta take off... I hope to be back later
[22:53] * Arnelos has quit IRC (Quit: )
[22:53] *dejon* oh, darn
[22:53] *dejon* missed Arnelos' Q
[22:54] *dejon* I'm posting our main discussion points in the RP forum (Zara attack, Leon stack, iron/road pillage), so that Togas and co. can read and think about them.
[22:55] * nbarclay has joined #MilOps
[22:55] *nbarclay* Disconnected twice by accident.
[22:56] *nye* bummer
[22:56] *nbarclay* I checked our latest save, and ND didn't have Engineering. If RP wants to, they can initiate a peace treaty and check whether they got it since our turn.
[22:57] *dejon* Ah, cool - no they don't have it
[22:57] *nye* why would gow withhold a vital military tech from nd during a campaign?
[22:57] *dejon* strange - I expected Vox to sell it to them
[22:57] *nbarclay* Because they aren't truly friends?
[22:58] *nbarclay* The relationshp between GoW and ND seems to be, uh, interesting to say the least.
[22:58] *dejon* yes, very
[22:58] *nbarclay* They're working together, but they seem to have very little trust for each other.
[22:58] *dejon* We tried to work that to our advantage, but no luck yet
[22:58] *nye* hmmm
[22:59] *asleepath* Go
[22:59] *asleepath* W has engineering, right?
[22:59] *nye* why is gow insisting on rp destruction before doing anything else?
[22:59] *nye* they know now that they are very unlikely to gain anything, since we are snapping up the only bits open to them
[22:59] *nye* once again...

[notyoueither]

[23:00] *nye* i think they are posturing to us, so that they have real communications to relay to nd
[23:02] *dejon* I think they just don't like us
[23:02] *dejon* Since we outmanuerved them a couple of times
[23:02] *asleepath* and now we've outmanuevered them as well, quite embarrassing I think
[23:03] *nye* that book of grudges will be the death of them...
[23:06] *nbarclay* GoW has all the techs we do.
[23:06] *nbarclay* I think GoW and China are a good fit. Inscrutible.
[23:06] *nbarclay*
[23:07] *dejon*
[23:07] *asleepath* and whats the deal with that great library, esp. since they have education. prebuild for leo's?
[23:07] *asleepath* its nice that they're building us a wonder
[23:07] *dejon* lol - that wonder build may be their single greatest mistake
[23:08] *dejon* that's alot of horses/riders they could have built
[23:08] *nbarclay* I've been suspecting a Leo's prebuild for a long time. But I hate to think how many shields they've wasted on it.
[23:08] *dejon* they already upgraded their horses too
[23:09] *nbarclay* Can you be sure they've upgraded all their horses?
[23:09] *dejon* well, no
[23:09] *nbarclay* There are certain things that a paranoid person tends to wonder about.
[23:09] *asleepath* we know of 14 riders, would they have many more horses and still be weak agsinst us?
[23:10] *asleepath* and their economy is quite....poor, could they afford the upkeep on a large standing army?
[23:10] *nbarclay* Considering that we have ten knights, which have the same stats as riders from a ranking perspective?
[23:10] *asleepath* much larger i mean
[23:10] *nbarclay* I'd say it's definitely possible.
[23:10] *dejon* asleep - exactly. We thought GoW came with every available offensive unit, leaving only defenders at home.
[23:10] *nbarclay* For that matter, our MedInfs are 4.2 vs. riders' 4.3.
[23:11] *asleepath* how are those stats figured, I haven't a clue, all I know is it screwed Vox
[23:11] *nbarclay* If I recall correctly, offense counts 4/3 as much as defense, and movement rate doesn't matter at all.
[23:11] *nbarclay* And the effect of cats is negligible.
[23:12] *asleepath* interesting
[23:13] *nbarclay* If GoW left a lot of pikes at home, they probably can't have much if anything in the way of horsemen left.
[23:13] *nbarclay* Although it takes two horsemen to equal one MedInf from a military comparison perspective, so the things aren't too hard to hide.
[23:13] *nbarclay* (Now that I think about it.)
[23:14] *nbarclay* By the way, I've had a lot of time to think about this sort of thing in one of GS's internal PBEM games. I'm playing the Ottomans, in first place, and Sir Ralph is China, in second.
[23:15] *nbarclay* So both of us have a bit higher than usual interest in mounted units.
[23:15] *asleepath* gotta love the sipahi
[23:15] * Togas has joined #milops
[23:16] *nbarclay* The trick is to live long enough to be able to use them.
[23:16] *nbarclay* But I expect to.
[23:16] *asleepath* that is the problem, the bullseye
[23:16] *asleepath* haha
[23:16] * BigFree has joined #MilOps
[23:16] *BigFree* What the hell is "Bismarck"
[23:16] *BigFree* 12:4)1
[23:17] *Togas* excuse me for a moment while I catchup
[23:19] *dejon* Togas is reading the "Coles notes" versions of some of our discussion topics, I expect he'll want to revisit some
[23:20] *Togas* OK, my current opinion is that we should strike the ND stack
[23:20] *Togas* I'm pondering the idea of moving an offensive stack out just yet
[23:20] *Togas* it WILL have to be done at some point, just not sure when.
[23:20] * Trip[civ] has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
[23:21] *asleepath* good riddance
[23:21] *asleepath* :0
[23:21] * dejon sets mode: +ooo nbarclay BigFree Togas
[23:22] *dejon* We'll get Chiv in 2-3 turns - that may be a good point (even if we only have 3 newly upgraded Knights)
[23:22] *nbarclay* Will you be able to save up the money in time?
[23:23] *Togas* 3 knights is like adding 3 pikes that can fight like Inf AND move twice as far. They will be quite a blessing for Zaragoza.
[23:23] *dejon* re: $ - at least for two
[23:23] *Togas* it's 80g each, yes?
[23:23] *nbarclay* Yes.
[23:23] *dejon* assuming we don't rush anything else
[23:24] *nbarclay* It may be worth GS considering helping finance the upgrades, but no promises.
[23:24] *Togas* understood
[23:25] *nbarclay* By the way, knights also have the advantage that Ansars can't retreat from them.
[23:25] *Togas* ND is in their golden age. We are going to soon see some serious army sizes. But for now our mil strengths are still equal so we still have time.
[23:25] *BigFree* Leon is still guarded by only Ansars
[23:25] *Togas* yes
[23:25] *nbarclay* GS outproduces ND even with their GA, so ND won't be the only ones you see serious army sizes from.
[23:26] *Togas*
[23:26] *BigFree* we need to get there on the offencesive before they get pikes there
[23:26] * Trip[civ] has joined #MilOps
[23:26] *dejon* we're down to 5th in goods an prod, btw
[23:26] * Trip[civ] is now known as Trip
[23:26] *Togas* we're without 5 cities, that's bound to happen.
[23:26] *Togas* we'll look worse w/o Madrid.
[23:27] *dejon* The road pillage option would cut ND defenders off from easy access to Leon, and prevent them building Pikes there.
[23:27] *Togas* at the cost of a horseman.
[23:27] *dejon* Since we can only afford two Knights of our own...
[23:28] *nbarclay* And a third a turn or two later.
[23:28] *nbarclay* Right?
[23:28] *dejon* I'm not convinced myself - just repeating the points
[23:28] *dejon* yes
[23:28] *Togas* Just gives the Ansars an easier chance at a GL
[23:28] *nbarclay* Ouch! And ND has an elite Ansar just waiting to pounce, right?
[23:28] * Togas notices that Leon is rioting .... good for them.
[23:29] *Trip* haha
[23:29] *Togas* They do have at least 1 elite that we've seen so far.
[23:29] *dejon* If we send a Leon stack and they attack it with their elite, we can then counter attack Leon and the elite unit
[23:30] *Togas* Leon stack?
[23:30] *dejon* though any Gl they produced would prob have moved back to their fort
[23:30] *dejon* hypothetical - did you read my last post?
[23:30] *Togas* explain to me what units would make up this stack
[23:30] *nbarclay* If we send a Leon stack, ND moves its ansars out of Leon and either abandons (destroys) the city or lets you have it and plans to retake it later.
[23:31] *nbarclay* (If RP sends)
[23:31] *Togas* ND gets a free shot at the whole stack before retreating
[23:31] *Togas* They can hit and run against us forever until we get knights.
[23:32] *Togas* the only decent odds we get is when they attack us in our cities.
[23:32] *dejon* 7 Cats , 6 or 7 MedInfs, 5 Vet Pikes
[23:32] *Togas* the thing that stack would do is soak up Ansar attacks.
[23:33] *nbarclay* With only five vet pikes, it's probably not worth it. Too many Ansars would be able to attack something other than pikes.
[23:33] *Togas* worse, they could hit Pamplona
[23:33] *dejon* Pamplona would have 6 pikes and 1-2 MedInf left
[23:33] *asleepath* If they did happen to abandon Leon, the army would be on a road and can move to Z
[23:33] *asleepath* or elsewhere if required
[23:33] *dejon* nathan - yes, but any less mean Pamp is underdefended
[23:33] *BigFree* I think it would be a samrt move to make a counter now against Leon
[23:34] *Togas* I am not convinced that we have the strength
[23:34] *dejon* neither am I - that's why its "ballsy"
[23:34] *Togas* I prefer to lure them into attacking one of our heavily fortified cities.
[23:35] *nbarclay* Agreed that Pamplona would be underdefended, which means the whole Leon operation is probably not a good idea at this time, unless perhaps the goal is to sacrifice units to keep Zaragoza from being hit.
[23:35] *nbarclay* Does anyone know what the odds are for an ansar attacking a MedInf in a size 7 city with walls?
[23:35] *Togas* I believe that if we attack the ND stack near Zaragoza, they will not have the strength to attack Z next turn.
[23:35] *dejon* I think we minimize the Zara attack by trimming the stack outside it now, and by sending the horses
[23:36] *dejon* They can still attack with just Ansars, but that won't be enough to take it
[23:36] *dejon* But they'll trim us, just as we'll have trimmed them
[23:36] *nbarclay* How about if you go ahead and take the cat shot and a couple attacks at the stack outside Z and see how that goes?
[23:37] *nbarclay* We'll have more information about the overall status after the situation with that stack is resolved.
[23:37] *BigFree* agreed
[23:37] *asleepath* my fear is that if we wait for them to attack, then we might be waiting a while, they might build a large ansar blitzing army, and meanwhile GoW inches closer with their 14 riders
[23:37] *BigFree* my thoughts too
[23:38] *BigFree* plus they reinforce with pikes
[23:38] *asleepath* and if we wait 3 turns to hit leon, their pikes will be there, now its just ansars for the most part
[23:38] *BigFree* now they only have a 2 defender
[23:38] * asleepath where have you been all my life BigFree
[23:38] *asleepath* :0
[23:38] *BigFree* 12:4)1
[23:38] *asleepath*
[23:38] *Togas* We take out that stack. They get the save, see them wiped out, and still see no RP units in play, their paranoia will keep them guessing.
[23:38] *Togas* All they'll know is that Zaragoza definately has troops in it.
[23:39] *asleepath* well, they can have goW spy
[23:39] *BigFree* yep
[23:39] *dejon* GoW plays after them
[23:39] *BigFree* most like they do
[23:39] *dejon* don't they
[23:39] *BigFree* yes
[23:39] *BigFree* they get outdated infor
[23:39] *asleepath* yes, they play after, but we can only get horses there in one turn
[23:39] *Togas* if not for WW, we would have just declared war on GoW and kept their spying out of it
[23:40] *asleepath* ansars can scout and get back without being noticed
[23:40] *nbarclay* But (just to pretend I'm paranoid), if GoW did spy, they would know what's in Zaragoza that could have attacked them.
[23:40] *BigFree* true
[23:40] *BigFree* if they knew, they would be dumb to move where they did
[23:40] *Togas* agreed
[23:40] *dejon* yes, that would be old info at this point
[23:41] *BigFree* no, Zara troops have been there for a while
[23:41] *nbarclay* But GoW's spy report would have come after they made their "dumb" move.
[23:41] *asleepath* -like I said the most you could add is a single pike or horses at this poit
[23:41] *BigFree* Pamplona's troops are new info
[23:41] *asleepath* is it dumb?
[23:41] *nbarclay* I really doubt that they're wasting gold on spying, though.
[23:41] *Togas* I think they're still upgrading
[23:42] *BigFree* alseep: It's dumb if we wipe thoose troops out with little effort
[23:42] *asleepath* maybe they want to get rid of the river bonus, maybe they want us to waste units on theirs, softening up for the ansars
[23:42] *asleepath* I can't honestlythink they did this without reason (insert joke about a certain civ we went to war with here)
[23:42] *BigFree* Togas, dejon; let's find out how we do against that stack.
[23:43] *nbarclay* If I were ND, I would expect Zaragoza to have a much higher ratio of defensive units to offensive units than it does.
[23:43] *BigFree* asleep, maybe they think we will never attack and have too many troops in our South
[23:43] *BigFree* we did gift cities away
[23:43] *asleepath* maybe so, that certainly makes since on both of those parts
[23:43] *BigFree* that is throwing them off
[23:43] *asleepath* probably, this has been quite the unconventional war so far :0
[23:44] *nbarclay* They're probably expecting that RP can hit their pikes and a couple MedInfs, but I doubt that they're expecting RP to have seven MedInfs in the city even if they are mostly regulars.
[23:44] *BigFree* ND and GoW may be thinking that we had many troops set up to protect our East coast from GS
[23:44] *asleepath* and would you put it past GoW to take the cash and fake screenshots?
[23:44] *BigFree* haha
[23:44] *dejon* IF they know the Z contents, then they know that we haven't enough Pikes there - so putting a stack there for our MedInf to attack is baiting us to weaken our MedInf defenders.
[23:44] *BigFree* no ****
[23:45] *nbarclay* Basically, what they've done is set up a no-win situation for you.
[23:45] *nbarclay* If you attack, it weakens Zaragoza's defenses.
[23:45] *BigFree* dejon: if we can take a stack of 6 units, with only two units lost, we won that battle big time.
[23:45] *nbarclay* If you don't attack, they have extra units with an attack value of 4 to hit you with.
[23:46] *dejon* Oh I agree we should attack
[23:46] *nbarclay* Either way, their moving the stack next to Zaragoza makes it harder to hold the city.
[23:46] *BigFree* Ok
[23:46] *BigFree* LETS ATTACK
[23:46] *nbarclay* But I think attacking their stack is the better of the less-than-ideal options available.
[23:46] *asleepath* agree
[23:46] *dejon* The thing they don't know is that we'll be able to send 3 horses to Zara - which may helps the numbers game
[23:46] *asleepath* exactly what I was thinking
[23:46] *Togas* 4 save it up, ready to g.
[23:47] *BigFree* Catapult away!
[23:48] *dejon* I'm loaded and ready
[23:48] *nbarclay* Who's playing the turn?
[23:48] *BigFree* me too
[23:48] *Togas* Renamed the Horsemen to the Trinity
[23:48] *Togas* We have Riders of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
[23:48] *BigFree* Togas will play
[23:48] *Togas* all three will first be moved to Zaragoza....
[23:48] *Togas* yes?
[23:49] *BigFree* but we will play along
[23:49] *dejon* Yes
[23:49] *nbarclay* No, please.
[23:49] *dejon* why?
[23:49] *BigFree* wait for results
[23:49] *nbarclay* There is no need to move them before they're ready to attack, right?
[23:49] *BigFree* exactly
[23:49] *Togas* Ok, will keep them in reserve.
[23:49] *nbarclay* And I was thinking the MedInfs would be the ones to launch the attack on ND's stack by Zaragoza.
[23:49] *dejon* If we're going to attack with our MedInf, we want the reinforcements. They're not needed in Pamp.
[23:50] *BigFree* dejon, attacking with Horsemen against Pikes is not fun
[23:50] *Togas* Our 7 Inf attack first
[23:50] *BigFree* MI's are our best bet
[23:50] *Togas* we have 6 targets
[23:50] *nbarclay* If the results outside Zaragoza are a disaster, moving horsemen in could just be throwing away potential knights.
[23:50] *BigFree* yep
[23:50] *Togas* that's fine, step 1 will be cat, step 2 inf
[23:50] *dejon* I'm not suggesting the horses attack, BF, they're just defense reinforcements (Ansar fodder)
[23:50] *Togas* then we'll pause to reconsider.
[23:51] *BigFree* ok dejon
[23:51] *nye* munches an m&m
[23:51] *BigFree* LOL
[23:51] *nbarclay* Doesn't "ansar fodder" imply they die?
[23:51] * nye munches an m&m
[23:51] *nye* must feed mars
[23:51] *Togas* Artilary Bombardment fails
[23:51] *dejon* sorry, you'd like optimism?
[23:51] *dejon*
[23:51] *asleepath* these are dark days
[23:52] *BigFree* Togas
[23:52] *asleepath* balls
[23:52] *BigFree* only wake one unit at a time
[23:52] *Togas* I know
[23:52] *BigFree* keep all fortified
[23:52] *BigFree* Ok
[23:52] *BigFree* 12:4)1
[23:52] *BigFree* just checking
[23:52] *Togas* 4 The Fist of God dies.
[23:52] *Togas* does 0 damage
[23:52] *BigFree* 12:4(1
[23:52] *Togas* perhaps someone else should play the save
[23:53] *dejon*
[23:53] *nbarclay*
[23:53] *asleepath* at least the pike wasn't promoted, was he?
[23:53] *dejon* I don't see a "Fist of God" - was that the new one?
[23:53] *Togas* not yet
[23:53] *Togas* he was new
[23:53] *dejon* ok
[23:53] *asleepath* so another loss and the pike will be a vet or an elite?
[23:53] *dejon* newbie deaths are nothing new
[23:53] *Togas* 4 knights of st john defeat the vile pikeman scum!
[23:53] *BigFree* yes
[23:53] *Togas* and get promoted to elite
[23:53] *nye* yay!
[23:54] *BigFree* yahoo
[23:54] *asleepath*
[23:54] *nbarclay* How much damage did they take?
[23:54] *dejon*
[23:54] *BigFree* down to two pips
[23:54] *nbarclay* Great news their winning, of course.!
[23:54] *nye* idea
[23:54] *Togas* 4 God's Wrath defeat the vile Pikeman scum! but have only 1 hp left
[23:54] *nye* use one horse to probe the second pike
[23:54] *nye* too late
[23:54] *nbarclay* Too late now.
[23:54] *nye*
[23:55] *asleepath* ")
[23:55] *asleepath*
[23:55] *Trip* good god
[23:55] *Trip* too many faces :P
[23:55] *dejon* Can't stop Togas on a roll
[23:55] *BigFree* ah shat up
[23:55] *asleepath* and the route is on
[23:55] *Togas* 4 The Order of the Sacred Name defeats the Moorish Infantry, taking only 1 damage!
[23:56] *nye* yay!
[23:56] *BigFree* :0
[23:56] *nbarclay* Great!
[23:56] *dejon* ooh, good, a 3/4 medinf for defense
[23:56] *BigFree* nice
[23:56] *Togas* 4 The Order of the Blood of Christ defeats the Moorish Infantry, also taking only 1 damage!
[23:56] *Trip* wow
[23:56] *BigFree* cool
[23:56] *dejon* another good one
[23:56] *asleepath* so how many left?
[23:56] *nye* yay!
[23:56] *BigFree* 2
[23:56] *Trip* 2 pikes killed, 2 infs
[23:57] *nbarclay* Fantastic!
[23:57] *BigFree* we lost one unit so far
[23:57] *Togas* 4 the Order of the Holy Spirit defeats the pathetic Moorish Infantry, also also taking only 1 damage!
[23:57] *dejon* what should we expect - these are dejon-family trained units at the oldest barracks in Spain!
[23:57] *BigFree* HAHA
[23:57] *nye* woohoo!
[23:57] *Togas* there is only 1 enemy unit left
[23:57] *Togas* he is a regular
[23:57] *asleepath* attack the last and leave someone open?
[23:57] *Togas* full 3 HP
[23:57] *dejon* don't kill him!
[23:57] *asleepath* we could send the horse up and hope to take a hp or two off and retreat, I suppose
[23:58] *nye* use the last mi to fort all
[23:58] *dejon* we don't want to leave a unit in the open - better to defend in city
[23:58] *BigFree* we hae two MI's left to attack with
[23:58] *Togas* shall I sent one of the Horses of the Trinity?
[23:58] *nye* and the one who wins, dies
[23:58] *asleepath* maybe he can run away and tell his generals about the disaster of Zaragosa
[23:58] *Trip* haha
[23:58] *Togas* yes, we have 2 Inf left
[23:58] *Trip* Horses of the Trinity
[23:58] *nye* anything that goes out there, dies
[23:58] *dejon* We needn't fear the reg pike
[23:58] *BigFree* true
[23:59] *dejon* leave him
[23:59] *nbarclay* Are the horses regular or vet?
[23:59] *Togas* reg inf
[23:59] *nbarclay* Or some of each?
[23:59] *Togas* horses are vets
[23:59] *nye* you have won a victory.
[23:59] *Togas* all 3 are vets
[23:59] *nye* that will give nd pause
[23:59] *nbarclay* What, exactly, is left to defend Zaragoza (including hit point counts)?
[23:59] *BigFree* RP-5 ND-1
[23:59] *dejon* we won't be able to counter attack the ansars that attack Zara anyways, so having that pike there won't matter
[23:59] *Togas* we have killed 5 Moorish invaders, losing only 1 infantry division