Game Discussion IV

[DeepO]

Originally posted by vondrack It was only you going strong that got me worried and made me ring an alarm in Lego. It might have been too late, but even if we had started few turns before, the situation wouldn't be all that different from what it is now, I believe. The most important thing was we slowed our research for about 2t, IIRC, upgraded our military (mostly arty), and started threwing much more into the military production.

Hmmm... actually, that's not so good news. For all this time, we've been watching on when marines could come around. We made a mistake there, in that we thought (or at least feared) a marine invasion. Maybe a bit paranoia. the real marines only were discovered some 15 turns later, and not by you We were happy building rifles, but all of a sudden, all our spears were upgraded. That's what triggered going strong. If we had known you were not planning a pre-emptive strike, we could have waited for at least another 5 turns before 'having' to upgrade.

Alas, in hindsight, it was still not enough - our military, even though sort of ready, is still kinda dwarfed by your combined forces. I was overly optimistic seeing how we get closer and closer to tanks...

Well... I've got to say, that always has been the plan. That's why it was so important to invade you the turn before you got tanks. The last few turns, you would not build military units, but finish all buildings. After all, once you've got tanks, who doesn't want to build loads of them in the first few turns? You would be at your weakest the turn before you discover them. You would also have most cathedrals and stuff, but who cares about that

I kinda agree that you missed the right moment. Had you invaded, say, 10 turns earlier, with half your forces, it would have been much worse for us that it is now (yes, even worse than it is now). We'd probably be already dead by now.

Again, you think we're something like 10 techs ahead of you? We needed to build tanks, we needed to build marines. Even with a tech alliance, these techs come at roughly the same time. Our empire is small, and I can assure you we squeezed every single last shield out of it to get there in time, but there is only so much we could do. Invading 10 turns earlier was no option. We might have shaved off 1 turn, if there wasn't a minor mix up between us and GoW regarding amphibious warfare, but that was it. Why do you think you haven't seen any GS bombers yet? We know flight for some time now, but we're not in the luxury of picking our builds. We would have loved a couple of bombers, to pummel those big bad BBs of yours, but at that time, we were still building our marines.

BTW... BBs... what luxury. We only can afford DDs. But, in the end, it got us where we wanted: on Legoland. And that's what really counts

Ya'know, it's difficult to believe that "you'd only want 3-4 cities". Even if you honestly meant it, there was no way we could have believed that without acting like fools actually...

There is one thing you should know by know: GS is not cunning anyone. If we say we want 3-4 cities, with hopefully a couple of lux, we mean it. If we want to take all of Bob, we simply shut up. And we don't invite anyone for the party either. We needed you, to make sure RP survived. We were not even interested in destroying ND or GoW, all we wanted was a spearhead, which others might focus on in case they attacked, and enough players in the game so that Stormia actually would be consider an average territory instead of the tiny, cramped island it is now.

The funny thing is, you painted a big bullseye on Legoland with your actions... we consider it a bit of karma

I knew that getting into this little chit-chat could gain us some new information... I have to honestly say that what you are saying is MAJOR news for us. We have always assumed it was you being the big guy (yeah, sorry, MZ, you just don't get the respect you rightfully deserve ...and ND must have been laughing at many a statement from Lego, too ) - because of the Hoover and all. And frankly, it is only now that the numbers make sense. Note to self: when your numbers seem to be slightly off , don't be lazy and investigate deeper.

You give us too much credit. Our land sucks... Oh, and we built Hoover, but the main reason was that we couldn't let any of the big players have it. Hoover costs shieldwise the same as 5 hydro plants. For our empire, that is hardly profit. For any of the other 3 empires, it would profit you a lot.

DeepO

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by DeepO
You would also have most cathedrals and stuff, but who cares about that

We do! What other targets will our bombers have!?!

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Master Zen
This was also done thanks to not spending a single shield on defense during all that time just counting on our Cavalry army which was during all this time quite huge. Once again good diplomacy ensured we did not have to divert attention to spending on an army.

We really are an odd couple... GS has spend nothing but every single shield on defense for the past 50 turns

But hey, we're proud of our army!

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Master Zen


We do! What other targets will our bombers have!?!

bah, infantry would have been nice

DeepO

[vondrack]

Originally posted by DeepO

I kinda agree that you missed the right moment. Had you invaded, say, 10 turns earlier, with half your forces, it would have been much worse for us that it is now (yes, even worse than it is now). We'd probably be already dead by now.

Again, you think we're something like 10 techs ahead of you? We needed to build tanks, we needed to build marines. Even with a tech alliance, these techs come at roughly the same time. Our empire is small, and I can assure you we squeezed every single last shield out of it to get there in time, but there is only so much we could do. Invading 10 turns earlier was no option. We might have shaved off 1 turn, if there wasn't a minor mix up between us and GoW regarding amphibious warfare, but that was it. Why do you think you haven't seen any GS bombers yet? We know flight for some time now, but we're not in the luxury of picking our builds. We would have loved a couple of bombers, to pummel those big bad BBs of yours, but at that time, we were still building our marines.

You now know that we had a spy with you - and for quite some time. Saying you should have invaded 10 turns earlier, I meant it would have been better to invade us with like 30 marines and 30 tanks several turns earlier instead of with 50+ marines and 70+ tanks now. Since we'd have had no tanks to counterattack with - our options would have been to turtle or to turtle harder... now we can bite back - and we do.

And until you entered modern times, we had a pretty good idea about where you were tech-wise. Those two ToE-granted expensive techs made a big difference. Kept us like 4-5 techs behind. That was a big deal.

Not researching marines and espionage earlier seemed a bit like a mistake from our PoV. We knew what you're cooking up (production-wise) thanks to our spy and knew you're unable to attack for quite some time (lacking marines).

Originally posted by DeepO
BTW... BBs... what luxury. We only can afford DDs. But, in the end, it got us where we wanted: on Legoland. And that's what really counts

Actually, those BBs... it was not that we would have wanted them so much... just that it felt (and was) a bit more effective shield-wise to use some of our cities for BB production rather than DD production. But had we had less luck with our BB attack... building BBs instead of DDs would now look like a major mistake. We still lacked numbers... after your initial attack, we had no DD left in the Western Ocean. It was only massive goldrushing that brought us back into the play there.

Originally posted by DeepO
There is one thing you should know by know: GS is not cunning anyone. If we say we want 3-4 cities, with hopefully a couple of lux, we mean it. If we want to take all of Bob, we simply shut up. And we don't invite anyone for the party either. We needed you, to make sure RP survived. We were not even interested in destroying ND or GoW, all we wanted was a spearhead, which others might focus on in case they attacked, and enough players in the game so that Stormia actually would be consider an average territory instead of the tiny, cramped island it is now.

Note the word "spearhead". It's usually or at least very often used talking about offensive operations, not about defensive lines.

The bad news for us is that since you have never said you'd want all of Legos, it's likely you actually want it...

Originally posted by DeepO
The funny thing is, you painted a big bullseye on Legoland with your actions... we consider it a bit of karma

Perhaps we could found a Bullseye Bearers Club! Since you had one big bullseye painted on you since the Stormian War... Anyone else wishing to become a member?

But serious... if you want to win a game like this, you cannot avoid painting a bullseye on yourself, sooner or later.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by vondrack

Perhaps we could found a Bullseye Bearers Club! ... Anyone else wishing to become a member?

GoW could easily be accepted as a member. Ever since MZ destroyed some of the world's oldest heritages in Legopolis and he bombed ruthlesly kittens and sacred Lego cows, he has a BIG RED Bullseye painted on him

[DeepO]

Originally posted by vondrack

You now know that we had a spy with you - and for quite some time. Saying you should have invaded 10 turns earlier, I meant it would have been better to invade us with like 30 marines and 30 tanks several turns earlier instead of with 50+ marines and 70+ tanks now. Since we'd have had no tanks to counterattack with - our options would have been to turtle or to turtle harder... now we can bite back - and we do.

I'm not going to comment on this, until after the war. At that time, ask us for our preferred tactics in our first turn of landing.

But keep one thing in mind: you can outproduce us, as you have done. Our ships were designed for one prupose only: to bring us to your shores. And exactly this has happened, we lost everything in our last turn, but landed.

So, no chance of reinforcements... 30 marines and 30 tanks, against some 80 infs... we take 1 city, and lose it 4 turns later, when you can build tanks. Invasion over.

And until you entered modern times, we had a pretty good idea about where you were tech-wise. Those two ToE-granted expensive techs made a big difference. Kept us like 4-5 techs behind. That was a big deal.

. Yep. Hoover is of no importance whatsoever in a MP game, especially not in a small empire. ToE is what can make or break a game. The happiness wonders are also nice, as they can let you exist without too many lux, but other than that, ToE is the only wonder worth going for. Oh, and again, it was only extreme focus that gave it to us... we were helped by our ally, but even without their help, nobody could have beaten us.
One other wonder is of course Leo's... it certainly would have made our spear to MI transition a bit cheaper

Not researching marines and espionage earlier seemed a bit like a mistake from our PoV. We knew what you're cooking up (production-wise) thanks to our spy and knew you're unable to attack for quite some time (lacking marines).

Well... that's why you need allies. Again, we could have used the tech 1 or 2 turns earlier, but that's about it. We were still building tanks. Also don't forget we can't leave Stormia undefended, we need tanks everywhere.

As to espionage: we did not have 4 turns to spare to research it ourselves. So with a bit of planning, we received it 1 turn before declaring war, with an instant CIA build. Why would we have needed it before? Sure, it makes nice pictures to watch, but we had a pretty good idea of your force strength. 6 months ago, I predicted that you would have got 100 infs at the time of invasion, maybe a bit more. (yes, the invasion date has been fixed for 6 months, we're only 2 turns off) In reality, you had 95 or something like that. You don't need spies in a build up, you need them at war. And the longer we had them, the more chance of exposure...

Actually, those BBs... it was not that we would have wanted them so much... just that it felt (and was) a bit more effective shield-wise to use some of our cities for BB production rather than DD production. But had we had less luck with our BB attack... building BBs instead of DDs would now look like a major mistake. We still lacked numbers... after your initial attack, we had no DD left in the Western Ocean. It was only massive goldrushing that brought us back into the play there.

"brought us back into play" is a bit of an understatement. But please continue the gold rushing

less luck with your BB attack? No, not really. You had more then enough luck... if we only had one 1/4 DD left in our stack, the actual invasion would have been a lot differently. It really sucks building all those nice marines, and not being able to use them because there are BBs in the way. You could argue that we didn't exactly lose many ships in our initial wave of attacks (it still pleasures me you didn't see the turn before the small movements made to ensure everything could be hit), but that was not so critical. A few wounded Lego DDs, out of position, would have posed no problem at all. A few GS wounded DDs on top of our transports would have made your whole defense plan a lot more difficult.

But we're not complaining... after you missed us in the first 2 turns (you got close, but not close enough), we thought we could have our dream landing: a city in the middle of your territory. It turned out differently, but still we made it. That in itself is an achievement, these invasions are not so easy as they might look.

Note the word "spearhead". It's usually or at least very often used talking about offensive operations, not about defensive lines.

I used it very deliberately. The threat of a spearhead is so big, that in any war it will receive the most focus. GoW could not have attacked you on Legoland, if you still had territory on Bob. They had to take that on first. And by doing so, they would only have attacked your troops, instead of your core cities (killing kittens, bombing cathedrals). Spearheads are the best defensive cities you can build.

The bad news for us is that since you have never said you'd want all of Legos, it's likely you actually want it...

We don't want all of Lego. Half of it will do very nicely, thank you very much

You're not waving a white flag yet, are you?

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

Brilliant discussion, Vondrack and DeepO!

[Beta]

Originally posted by Master Zen


We do! What other targets will our bombers have!?!

Dare I say it. The 'k' word.

[ZargonX]

meow.

[snoopy369]

Not to be picky or anything but DeepO I think you misunderstand "spearhead" (and so vondrack is mistaking your meaning). Spearhead means either "someone who leads or initiates an activity or attacK" or "the leading military unit in an attack" (wordreference.com). You mean "bulwark" or "front", meaning an area of active military combat (front) or a strongly defended point meant to anchor defensive lines (bulwark)... if i'm not mistaken?

[DeepO]

Not a bulwark, just the opposite. A front, perhaps... of course, my vocabulary is a bit limited in these things, but spearhead did voice it as best as I could. Spearhead city might have better described it, if you don't know the exact word

I know it sounds strange, but it's exactly the offensive nature, which makes it the best defense. How would you call one single city on a vast continent, with the very clear intent (or at least threat) to be used as a jumping board for an invasion? I thought that was called a spearhead. Think Gibraltar, or one of the Spanish enclaves in Morroco. Of course, if these cities are there for a longer time, they start to get defensive buildings as well, to best protect the troops, and certainly barracks, airport, and a harbor (in the real world certainly also bars and hookers), but they will never get a university.

They have 2 uses: in case you want to attack the contitent the city is built on, it gives you land-based access for your troops, with a place to rest, upgrade, and things like that. But defensively, they're a lightning rod, and a very effective one too.

Again, if only one Lego city was left on Bob, GoW could not have invaded before dealing with that one city. Given the timing involved, it would have been very hard to combine both the attack on that city (needing tanks, arts, bombers), and an invasion (also needing tanks, arts, bombers). And while now, each bombing run either kills kittens, or destroys buildings (which Lego can't rebuild, as it is in mobilization), that city is expendable, and only exists to prod Bob with a big, large stick.

So... a defensive spearhead. For lack of a better vocabulary

(bulwark is the opposite, AFAIK. Invoice and Elipolis could be considered bulwarks, as they guard 1-tile passages between parts of continents.)

DeepO

[Rhothaerill]

From Websters Online Dictionary....

Main Entry: spear·head
Pronunciation: -"hed
Function: noun
1 : the sharp-pointed head of a spear
2 : a leading element, force, or influence in an undertaking or development


Main Entry: bul·wark
Pronunciation: 'bul-(")w&rk, -"work; 'b&l-(")w&rk; sense 3 also 'b&-"läk
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English bulwerke, from Middle Dutch bolwerc, from Middle High German, from bole plank + werc work
1 a : a solid wall-like structure raised for defense : RAMPART b : BREAKWATER, SEAWALL
2 : a strong support or protection
3 : the side of a ship above the upper deck -- usually used in plural

So snoop I think DeepO has his wording correct based on his explanation. A bulwark city is solely defensive, while a spearhead city would be the offensive thorn in the side of the Bobian continent by it's very nature.

[snoopy369]

Now i understand ... he means more of a foothold, or some such.

Spearhead by its nature is fleeting; it must be in "an undertaking or development" as you say. The "spearhead" of an attack is the front members of it - but once the attack is over it's not the spearhead anymore. ("Front" has a similar problem, but is somewhat longer lasting at least.) AFAIK he's referring to a location that will be kept after the first battle (the Bobian war) and used later on to be a point both for strong defense against other nations, and a point to force other nations to go there first. Hence "bulwark" (or "bastion", would work too) - a defensive stronghold or "support" (the 2nd meaning is more appropriate in the military context). Not very precise based on the later clarification, but I was stretching.

I think "Foothold" is more specific though - "Lego would have gained a foothold on the Bob continent, forcing GS and GoW to attack Lego on Bob first, and also allowing Lego an easy way to attack GoW/GS." I suspect that would be an accurate summary of the meaning (unless I misunderstand what country is doing what, anyhow). No?

Regardless, I think the meaning comes across ... just trying to clear up what I thought was a misunderstanding based on two interpretations of the same word. Not meaning to be an english teacher or anything

[zerialienguru]

Small note:
In the tradition of the last turns, GWT needs more time
i will play the turn after german soccer about 16:00 o'clock GMT today