Game Discussion IV

[notyoueither]

I'm baffled by why Lego thought a two team Bob and an antagonised GS was less of a threat than a three team Bob with one or both of the fast mover allies seriously hampered by war damage.

[Hot_Enamel]

My guess.

Just like ND & GoW, they didnt want GS to get a foothold on Bob.

GoW's greatest fear was that our homeland was virtually undefended and GS tried an Inchon/Inchoff.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Aeson
GS put a lot of thought into everything we did diplomatically. Why do you think we were so slow at it?

While GS diplomacy was always maligned by everyone, I think it actually was a strength for us. We didn't let ourselves be lead around by GoW, which is part of why GoW thinks we were so hard to deal with. We knew what the world situation boiled down to (ie. who controls Bob wins the game), and we were the only team which actively attempted to confront ND and GoW on Bob. Who you choose to go to war with, and why, is part of diplomacy.

I don't think it was maligned, but rather thought of as too rigid. At the start of the game most of us were very reserved towards GS because we felt a rather hermetical attitude on your part and had no real idea on how to approach you. We didn't know if you'd feel insulted or something if we tried to deal flexibly, for some reason we felt that deals with GS would only be stuff like "trade this for this, etc etc", in short, like the AI conducts diplomacy. With other teams, like Roleplay and Lux, diplomacy - though at times hardly cordial - was much more fluid, dynamic and alternative. ND of course was also quite rigid at first, but part of that is attributable to the language barrier as well as the fact that no-one really knew them, and they didn't know us.

Vox's diplomacy always seems to be highly regarded. What did Vox do diplomatically? They did what the world in general wanted them to do, and without getting much support in return. It's easy to get along with everyone if you let them get their way. Certainly Vox was in a tough position, but they had other bridges to try, and the one they burned was perhaps the one with the most potential.

Actually Vox is most regarded for their humor which caused the other teams to side with them during the game. They had one big shot at greatness, invading Bob, and they were bluffed by the Bobians. Of course, most of us actually thought they were going to defeat GS with such a sheer force of immortals.

If you say "GS should have allied with Vox", in the same breath you are saying "Vox should have allied with GS". Over and over again, GS is maligned for it's diplomacy, but no other team is mentioned for it's part in that diplomacy. It's a double standard.

Yep, both could have allied with the other. My coments were merely regarding what perhaps I would have tried to do in GS's shoes - had Vox not invaded of course which sent all plans of alliance to the gutter.

GoW's diplomacy with GS was not very good either. GoW succeeded in making themselves more hated than RP (by a good margin) by GS. The bobian war could have gone much more easily for GoW and ND if they had been more friendly to GS. Instead of facing GS and RP, GS probably would have hit RP too, and then GoW and ND would have just faced GS, GS already having done most of the work against RP.

In my view, GS made one major mistake diplomatically, and GoW had one major triumph diplomatically concerning GS. We signed the NAP with GoW, meaning we couldn't proactively hit GoW or ND, but were forced to try to protect RP's land as our enterance into the war. While GS' tendancy to be hard to deal with is maligned, it was a case of us being too easy to deal with that cost us dearly. If we had been able to invade GoW or ND as our enterance into the Bobian war, this game probably would have been a lot different.

Well, you could have invaded us anyway. Kept Spain loosely defended and channelled your forces for an invasion of GoW the moment we took your first Spanish city. I'd say it was much more a military failure than a diplomatic one. And you are right, it would have been a lot different: it would have pretty much been over since we had nothing to defend against. By the time you guys did invade it was too late, we outnumbered you both in the north and in the south.

-MZ

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by ZargonX
The problem was, immediately after the Bobian war, everyone stopped talking to us except Vox That was when we basically knew that GoW/GS would be gunning for us sometime soon (we actually expected the invasion much earlier than it happened). ND at that point also went from friendly to the point of threatening us as soon as the war started (which we know why, now ).

Heh, I have no idea about that. Contrary to popular belief we didn't share everything regarding diplomacy with ND, only stuff which was of mutual benefit. I would really like to hear more about ND's attitude during the Lego War.

For the record, during Zayxus' term as ND leader, he was very adamant about not attacking at all. GS doesn't know this but GoW had originally plotted to take out Lego first by ourselves after the Lego War (or should I say after getting Cavs and before Lego could get RR, alas a ship-shortage prevented this). Then we started talking with ND about such possiblities but we got a nice big flat no. ND thought Lego had been very honorable to them so far in the game and they found it inconceivable to attack you to the point that they were willing to hand the game over to you by never attacking. But then relations with GS improved greatly and they started hinting at the fact that Lego was getting more and more powerful. That was the prelude of GAULâ„¢ (Grand Alliance to Undermine Lego).

Once Darekill got to power things changed a bit, ND still did not join us in the quarrel but because of economic reasons: they were a bit backwards compared to us and could not achieve a buildup according to GoW and GS's timelines. But they did help a bit inderectly: they lent us about 16 artilleries which were crucial at Stanwix later on.

("lent" is an understatement since we never gave them back )

Still, if you read our joint-victory statement, there was a very specific clause which said that neither team was under any obligation to help the other in a war of aggression, only in a war of defense. That is also why GoW told ND plainly that if they attacked GS after the Lego War we would not participate until the time of our choosing. Likewise with RP though in the latter conflict we definitely gave them our moral support.

That was the part that bothered me the most, and still bothers me about most of these demogames; diplomacy is important for a while, than becomes almost irrelevant. You can make excellent deals, have a wonderful relationship with a team, but as soon as they decide that they have a chance to win by turning on you, they usually will. Maybe I'm just an idealist who dreams of a proper RP'd demogame where relations actually mattered, but I have yet to see it in practice...

Yep, I agree and it is quite sad. The thing is that geo-politics sometimes ends up being more important than diplomacy. No matter how good Lego's diplomacy, it would have been quite difficult to avoid getting gangbanged eventually by virtue of your sheer size. Nevertheless I think from experience the best strategy in a demogame is to be actively scheming at all times if anything to avoid your team being the victim of such a scheme.

In the PTWDG II, Team Latin Lover paid a similar price. They thought that turtling and not bothering anyone would mean no-one would go after them. They were wrong (and I regret so much not being active with the team, things might have been very different).

-MZ

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by vondrack


Very well said, Z. Especially the part on how great I was...

But I think you summed it up very well. As long as there was a way to conduct good diplomacy, we did our best, and mostly succeeded (I am still quite proud of how we secured the Sistine Chapel through various deals with all other teams). Once others decided it was time to cut us off, we could have done whatever and it would not help.

And yes, UnO, we were discussing our diplomacy quite some, often setting guidelines to stick to during diplo chats. With very few exceptions, Lego was following an official, pre-discussed strategy in diplo chats (though I'll be the first to admit that a lot of diplomacy happened sort of "in the shadows", with people chatting here and there to their mates from other teams, sometimes more, sometimes less with an official blessing of the current team executive.

That was no understatement, you were damn good Vond.

I'd probably consider you the best all-around team leader during this game because you were no slacker in any of the abilities needed: diplomat, builder, war leader, schemer. Of course I'd also give kudos to DeepO, I don't think anyone else managed so much with so little. And of course there's Aggie our war leader!

I would be honored if next time we could be on the same side of the fence for a change.

What Civ3 is really lacking is a proper ingame alliance victory, available to an alliance forged halfway through the game. Then, things would work very different (and we'd not be having most of this whole shared victory discussion in the first place - as it would be generally considered something very natural).

But MZ hinted at CIV being hopefully better in this regard, so let's hope for a brighter future...

BTW, is Poly no longer choking on threads with slightly more than 500 posts...?

Rest assured, the word is that cooperative victories will be allowed in Civ4 as a new type of victory. This will be great for PBEMs and MP games though I'm not sure if they will be overly invoked in a demogame since the fact is most people want to win by themselves. I guess it would depend on the demogame in question if two teams would find that they can't win alone.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
My guess.

Just like ND & GoW, they didnt want GS to get a foothold on Bob.

GoW's greatest fear was that our homeland was virtually undefended and GS tried an Inchon/Inchoff.

So they handed the keys to dominance to the two teams on Bob and pissed off the only other power outside of Bob.

Like I said, I am baffled.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Master Zen


I don't think it was maligned, but rather thought of as too rigid. At the start of the game most of us were very reserved towards GS because we felt a rather hermetical attitude on your part and had no real idea on how to approach you. We didn't know if you'd feel insulted or something if we tried to deal flexibly, for some reason we felt that deals with GS would only be stuff like "trade this for this, etc etc", in short, like the AI conducts diplomacy. With other teams, like Roleplay and Lux, diplomacy - though at times hardly cordial - was much more fluid, dynamic and alternative. ND of course was also quite rigid at first, but part of that is attributable to the language barrier as well as the fact that no-one really knew them, and they didn't know us.

That's interesting, especially when considering that GS considered joining the gang bang of RP, but found it distasteful to do that to other people. We were almost relieved when ND took the hard line about ports. It eliminated the rational course of action, and made the emotional one more obvious.

And then we got sucked into emotion, and neglected DeepO's plan. We funneled more and more into Spain, and completely neglected the idea of destroying GoW while the mice were away.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by notyoueither


So they handed the keys to dominance to the two teams on Bob and pissed off the only other power outside of Bob.

Like I said, I am baffled.

They probably thought the Bobians were eventually to quarell among themselves.

[Hot_Enamel]

Lego should give their reasons, but I assume they always thought ND & GoW would face off against each other eventually, leaving both in ruins.

GS would be left with too little land, and no allies.

And Lego gets enough land & friends to last the game.

That doesnt seem too radical for me.



Now if GS had played ball, and stayed out of the Bob conflict like we wanted, we would of gone against Lego as allies much earlier. (Which was the plan)
Not sure how it would of panned out...maybe the same way. You never know.

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by Master Zen
In the PTWDG II, Team Latin Lover paid a similar price. They thought that turtling and not bothering anyone would mean no-one would go after them. They were wrong (and I regret so much not being active with the team, things might have been very different).

-MZ

Nah, Tabemono always thought that LL was building up to attack us so we built too. And then when the attack didn't come we had all those Riders sitting around with nothing to do. So we put them to work. Wouldn't you?

[ZargonX]

Nah, Tabemono always thought that LL was building up to attack us so we built too.

That, and all the delicious beef they had!

[/threadjack]

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
Lego should give their reasons, but I assume they always thought ND & GoW would face off against each other eventually, leaving both in ruins.

GS would be left with too little land, and no allies.

And Lego gets enough land & friends to last the game.

That doesnt seem too radical for me.



Now if GS had played ball, and stayed out of the Bob conflict like we wanted, we would of gone against Lego as allies much earlier. (Which was the plan)
Not sure how it would of panned out...maybe the same way. You never know.

Stayed out?

We were being asked to join, but our presense was not to be tolerated afterwards. It was an insult, to be honest.

To continue in the honest vein, RP saved your bacon when they approached us and we decided to commit troops to defend Spain.

Had we not done that, those troops would have been invading GoW a few turns after you kicked off on RP.

What a strange game.

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by notyoueither


That's interesting, especially when considering that GS considered joining the gang bang of RP, but found it distasteful to do that to other people. We were almost relieved when ND took the hard line about ports. It eliminated the rational course of action, and made the emotional one more obvious.

And then we got sucked into emotion, and neglected DeepO's plan. We funneled more and more into Spain, and completely neglected the idea of destroying GoW while the mice were away.

An invasion into GoW would of killed us.
We couldnt get our GA/production going.
And our entire plan hinged on getting the NAP from GS, so that we didnt have to protect our shores.

As soon as GS broke the NAP , we let Lego know, that GS would make mince meat out of us if they attacked us directly. Which started the ball rolling with Lego getting their knights into our territory.
Which in the end... were not needed, as we had you outnumbered.

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Stayed out?

We were being asked to join, but our presense was not to be tolerated afterwards. It was an insult, to be honest.

To continue in the honest vein, RP saved your bacon when they approached us and we decided to commit troops to defend Spain.

Had we not done that, those tropps would have been invading GoW a few turns after you kicked off on RP.

What a strange game.

I actually dont think you would of invaded us. We had a NAP remember. The GS honor code and all that. You even had to "twist" the NAP agreement to make us attack you first in the South.. just so you guys had a clear conscience.


Also remember.. even though ND refused to allow you any presence on Bob, GoW did offer you it.
The offer was .. you can have 1 city on Bob, if GoW can have 1 city on Estonia.

You guys wouldnt even consider allowing us a city on Estonia ... for the eaxact same reasons we didnt want you on Bob


{Edit} - also remember.. yep, we asked you to stay out. But what we wanted to do was ally with you against Lego straight after. You would of got us to agree to a bigger piece of Lego or anything really. Of course.. Lego was also our ally and we didnt really come out and say we want an alliance against Lego...just in case you guys leaked it out to them.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Master Zen
I don't think it was maligned, but rather thought of as too rigid.

Um... that itself could be termed maligning GS diplomacy.

I've read through the entire PTWDG archive since the declaration of the shared alliance of ND and GoW. The topic of how bad GS diplomacy is was perhaps the most consistant one brought up throughout the archives. (Or at least tied with Lux's military exploits...)