War Academy - Persia defeated, Aztec-American War, what next?

[joncnunn]

I agree that getting the Russians involved against the French is a good idea.

We should also think about how to keep Hole in the Wall from falling to the French during that war as well.

[Meshelic]

Good idea on the Russian intervention idea, I think we can use the Russians to some extent in the future that will greatly benefit us, since their neighbor Rome is probably our real competition for Pax Apolytonia

ROBBERB - The idea as you know was to annex a large portion of France (if not all of it) while at the same time paying attention to homeland building. I think that in this scenerio both the DIA and Hawks can be satisfied.

AGGIE - I thought it was great at the beginning of this thread : RubyMaser called out to eat drink and be merry and then next post was a very well done strategic outline for a war campaign. Had to laugh at the timing on that one.

[joncnunn]

The Romans usally go into a spiral of decay starting about now in my games that ends with them being annexed by the closest neighbor(s).

I think that Germany is the bigest competion to Pax Apolyontia because they are soon going to pick the weakest oppoent to them and attack them. (Most likely the English or Aztecs if we acquire Gunpodwer upgrade our Pike Men to Musket Men on their border fast enough.)

Watch to see what Germany does.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by joncnunn
The Romans usally go into a spiral of decay starting about now in my games that ends with them being annexed by the closest neighbor(s).

I think that Germany is the bigest competion to Pax Apolyontia because they are soon going to pick the weakest oppoent to them and attack them. (Most likely the English or Aztecs if we acquire Gunpodwer upgrade our Pike Men to Musket Men on their border fast enough.)

Watch to see what Germany does.

If this turns out to be the case, I think we have a strong argument to turning the English or the Aztecs (whichever is attacked) into a client/satellite state for Apolytonia (finally a Great Power, proper ) and feed them the capability the need to at least hold off the German hordes while we build up our forces for the deathblow against Germany (striking from behind with overwhelming force).

If this is done, then the Aztecs and the English would both be somewhat at our mercy due to being next to us and seperated from the rest of the known world. This will make it very hard for either of them to ever even consider attacking us and may easily allow us to progress from them being client states of ours in opposition to the Germans to being dependent trading partners and a source of income.

Ultimately, because of the influence of corruption, it would be worth more to us to allow them their independence while keeping them as dependent trading partners (selling them our luxuries for as extortionary a price as we can get - eventually even selling them techs for similar extortionary prices). Since corruption would be so horrible if we actually conquered them that we'd spend far more money keeping order than we'd gain from them, they're actually worth more to us as cowed and dependent trading partners than as subjects (this as a long-term rather than short-term strategy, of course).

It's really a pity we aren't a commerical civ (I always play commercial) as commercial civs can afford to have larger empires then non-commercial civs because corruption is less restrictive on the far reaches of their empire. But oh well... a commercial civ we are not and that means the maximum profitable size of our empire under the current Civ3 rules is approaching quickly. I strongly recommend we stop expanding at that size and make dependent those we do not conquer.

[GePap]

I would oppose a war to destroy France, as its consequences may greatly overcome any gains: While france is weak, it probably wil be capable of calling other civs against us. The four candidates are the Aztecs, Germans, Romans, Greeks. The Aztecs are the smallest threat, as they lie far away from us generally and are the weakest of the four civs mentioned. The greeks are a significant threat since they have cities that project into our undefended 'gut': though at the same time, the greeks have not shown great martial spirit.
Germany leads in tech, and will continue to do so for the time being. Hopefully they lack saltpeter- if they have it, we wil have significant difficulties with them. Rome is obviously the greatest threat, as they hav an army superior to ours, and superior tech-plus they would be in a postion to attack our forces in the french front itself. If the French were able to simply pul one, or worst, 2 of these enemies against us, the situation would be a significant danger- and we should remember that once any one state comes in, they can create their own alliences vs us.

We are already #1 in the histograph- we already have the most land, some key wonders, and have the potential to be the economic powerhouse- yet we are, and keep falling further and further behind in tech. Up until the Peace treaty with Persia we were at least 5 techs behind the germans. Now we are at best, only 3 behind. Folks, if we maintain this rate, our knights will be facing riflemen before we know it- considering that at least 3 of our neighbors will get nationalism for free.
We need to turn our state into a tech leader- not a state always looking to scrap enough cash to pay exorbitant amounts. War for techs, due to ou tech. backwardness, is already becoming an iffy proposition. We need more trade, more wealth-we need to actually discover things for ourselves! War with france will not help this- and neither will war with anyone else, besies a weak and soon to be dead (by our hands or others) America.

[Meshelic]

Originally posted by Arnelos

turning the English or the Aztecs (whichever is attacked) into a client/satellite state for Apolytonia (finally a Great Power, proper ) and feed them the capability the need to at least hold off the German hordes while we build up our forces for the deathblow against Germany (striking from behind with overwhelming force).

What should happen to us supposing either the Aztecs or the English beef up their industrial and military might after we've turned them into a satellite states? Worrying about a supposed 'ally' who might just decide to align themselves with another nation who is against us doesn't sound very appealing.

However, a good challenge for the Foreign Ministry...

[Meshelic]

I would only worry about that because generally the AI likes to coalition itself with the other civz to take you down. We all know a multiple front war is not an option for us....well, not NOW anyways....

[Meshelic]

It seems that the consensus is that with the upcoming elections, as well as the soon to be change to Republic (although who knows when this will happen), as well as the onset of the GA soon, that war with France may or may not be the best idea, at least for the time being. After rereading many of the threads, it seems that the conversations have leaned more towards these options:

1.) Quick annexation of eastern French provinces then sue for peace. Through this we weaken the French Army again and make sure it is no position to launch an offensive in near future....
2.) Wait until we have chivalry before we begin an assault and in the meantime build up our cultural improvements.

I call for a polling soon to decide on an appropriate form of action

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Meshelic
1.) Quick annexation of eastern French provinces then sue for peace. Through this we weaken the French Army again and make sure it is no position to launch an offensive in near future....
2.) Wait until we have chivalry before we begin an assault and in the meantime build up our cultural improvements.

I call for a polling soon to decide on an appropriate form of action

I would agree those are the two main options people have coalesced around, though the second argument says we should wait for Cavalry rather than Chivalry .

There is a third option some have argued for and it would only be fair to include it in such a poll for those who would wish to vote for it: Do not go to war with France at all, largely because we have no pressing need for it.

All three have supporters (I happen to be mostly in favor of #2, though I haven't really decided for sure), so they are all valid options for such a poll.

[Donegeal]

Originally posted by Meshelic
2.) Wait until we have chivalry before we begin an assault and in the meantime build up our cultural improvements.

Yea! We already have Chivalry! Kill! Whack all other civs! Destroy! What? you mean he meant Cavalry? Oh...

[Donegeal]

I am against a war to destroy France.

First, why I wouldn't "destroy" anyone:
Little wimpy civs are good to sell tech to for L or Lpt. Also if you destroy a civ, you can't sue them for anything when you want peace.

Second, why not France:
Although France is weak and prime for the taking, it would increase the number of tiles we have to defend, and increase the number of civs we would have to defend against. In short, it would greatly increase our border.

If we go to war (not the quick "whacking" types I keep refering to), I would say we go after England. Since we have driven the Persians from our lands, we eliminated our eastern border. We drove straight to the ocean. Let us push up from the Persian Lowlands and continue along the coast. We gain land but do not increase our border.
Go along the coast then start attacking the German and Aztecs in a big pust across the northern central part of Abananaba. Continue pushing until we take the Ivory Coast of Greece.
From here we push south through france and into Abananaba Minor.
Our defendable border never increases (or only slightly does so).

"The Great Loop of Abananaba" stragety.

[Meshelic]

Woah it must have been all this Macross City wine I just drank at my nomination party....*hiccup*

[Torkkeli]

Btw has any one noticed the Aztec army near Washington (S,SSE)?

I think this proves that the Aztec have a strong army and should be dealt with this in mind.
They are most certainly able to take us down, until we build enough defensive forces.

[Robber Baron]

The more I ponder the map, the stronger my conviction grows that we need to build, to brake expansion, to buttress and improve our empire before undertaking any further wars. In particular, we need to either relocate our capital or build a forbidden palace -- preferably both. Until we have realigned ourselves along more central lines, we are VERY vulnerable to attack, and stagnating culturally.
So while I support the idea of swooping in and taking whatever remnants of America survive by the time our knights reach the front, I strongly oppose war against the French at this time.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

In the war w/ America I believe we should use our elite units not the WCs to attack in the hopes we can get a GL which could be used for a Palace/FP or wonder.