Israel civ

[Edan]

Originally posted by Agathon
Let me state again - Israel is a very small country that is effectively a vassal of the United States, without which it would be crushed by military and diplomatic means.

Israel fought all of it's wars, with the exception of the Yom Kippur Warwith negligable support from the US. Of course, as has been pointed out, that has a great deal to do with the incompetance of her enemies, as well as intelligence gathering, as well as Israel's military.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth


Oh, and one other thing: read a little bit about Israel history before you make this ludicrous statement... Israel's nuclear power was STOLEN from America by the Mossad

Looks like you're the one that needs to read a bit of Israel's history...

[Edan]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth

and played the Arabs against each other despite their professed desire to "drive Israel into the sea," in numerous acts of diplomacy that rival anything historically committed by any of the current civs in the game.

Hardly an amazing feat, given that the Arab nations have shown that they are more than capable of playing against each other without any Israeli help.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Edan

Looks like you're the one that needs to read a bit of Israel's history...

I should clarify my statement. Israel did not "steal America's nuclear power," but it did solicit American nuclear personnel to smuggle knowledge of the working of nuclear reactors, NOT directed by the CIA or US State Department: it was, essentially, an illegal act that was not revealed until years later, when Israel had truly become "a US vassal" if that's what people want to call this tiny state. The details can be found in "Gideon's Spies," a book about the Mossad, and in other sources. Mossad agents also solicited French help in developing a missle program, with more overt support.

Israel, at its founding, did not have the scientists to build a formidable missile program, but now its missle program is formidable indeed. Sure, it might be not be able to destroy the entire planet MANY times, but it could do it ONCE. So, at the behest of the founders of Israel, much military technology, including nuclear secrets, were stolen in league with pro-Israel technicians abroad, WITHOUT the backing of their governments. The fact that this was not later considered an act of war is due to Israel's later close alignment with America, whose value became apparent in particular in the 1960s and 1970s.

If you think I'm a weird freak, or doubt these facts, look to "A History of Israel From the Rise of Zionism to Our Time"... an exhaustive, pro-Zionist history that, despite its leanings, must admit these basic facts... that Israel played the great powers, and the Arab powers, against each other, in a cynical way, quite effectively. Bismark would have been proud.

(Since they stole the original knowledge, of course, Israel has come to develop a formidable military-scientific complex of its own and now EXPORTS rather than illegally imports missile knowledge)

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Edan


Hardly an amazing feat, given that the Arab nations have shown that they are more than capable of playing against each other without any Israeli help.

Yes, true, the modern Arab states aren't exactly shining examples of diplomatic and military finesse! But during the founding of Israel, their armies did outnumber Israel's by a 10 to 1 manpower ratio, and they employed modern British and French equipment, whereas the Israel "army" had to dig up antiquated equipment... pretty much whatever they could get their hands on.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth


I should clarify my statement. Israel did not "steal America's nuclear power," but it did solicit American nuclear personnel to smuggle knowledge of the working of nuclear reactors, NOT directed by the CIA or US State Department:

The bulk of Israeli nuclear technology came from France, and it wasn't stolen.

Mossad agents also solicited French help in developing a missle program, with more overt support.

On it's ballistics missiles program, IIRC, after Egypt had displayed it's BM. But before Israel went to France, it had already designed and built the Shavit-2 Missile.

Sure, it might be not be able to destroy the entire planet MANY times, but it could do it ONCE.

Once would be more than enough for me.

[SeferKoheleth]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
The State of Israeli is composed of Ashkenazic Jews, Oriental Jews, Mahgreb Jews, and some other types, as well as Israeli Arabs, and some Christians floating around in there. It shouldn't be denied that the founding of Israel was mostly the work of Ashkenazic Jews, but these were not "pure Jews" in the sense of them all being Orthodox, or something like that...

In fact, most of the revolutionary Jewish leaders were socialist in inclination and most of the Orthodox refused to fight, citing religious reasons, so in other words, the modern State of Israel is not made up of the "Jews who stayed Jewish" over the course of 1,000 of years of history exclusively, though those are definitely present... there are many "Europeanized" Jews, and in fact, though still constitute the ruling class of Israel.

To respond once again to "No Great Jewish Empire" argument, I say once more: Iroquois? Aztecs? Zulu? With its intelligence and military operations abroad, Israel today has the potential, even, to be a new "Carthage"... an incredibly powerful miniature state...

Although I doubt that Israel will ever march with elephants over the alps.

The State of Israel was founded by secular Jews--- but even those Jews were only 2 or 3 generations removed from Orthodoxy, and basically did not intermarry. Why? Because there ARE no Jews who are 10 generations secular... Jews who went secular 10 generations ago within 6 generations ago became Christians. I repeat again-- Jews who became so secular so as to intermarry did not have Jewish decendents, they had Christian or Muslim decendents.

Additionally, although FOUNDED by secular Jews, the vast majority of Israel's population came from either Middle Eastern countries or from Eastern Europe, which was more traditional. Upon arriving in Israel, many became secular... but didn't intermarry within Israel became everyone was Jewish or Arab (and the Arabs were very culturally secluded).

[High_Lord]

Sharon is a fatty!!

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by SeferKoheleth


The State of Israel was founded by secular Jews--- but even those Jews were only 2 or 3 generations removed from Orthodoxy, and basically did not intermarry. Why? Because there ARE no Jews who are 10 generations secular... Jews who went secular 10 generations ago within 6 generations ago became Christians. I repeat again-- Jews who became so secular so as to intermarry did not have Jewish decendents, they had Christian or Muslim decendents.

Additionally, although FOUNDED by secular Jews, the vast majority of Israel's population came from either Middle Eastern countries or from Eastern Europe, which was more traditional. Upon arriving in Israel, many became secular... but didn't intermarry within Israel became everyone was Jewish or Arab (and the Arabs were very culturally secluded).

This is all true. One tiny anal retentive point though... there is no one in the world that is 10 generations secular. Modern atheism, i.e., belief in no God or higher power, spirtual power... pure materialism or whatever you want to call it... is a very new concept.

We might be coming on 10 generations soon, but we ain't there yet.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by High_Lord
Sharon is a fatty!!

That's not very nice. He's always spoken well of you.

[Panag]

Originally posted by High_Lord
Sharon is a fatty!!

hi ,

have you looked at yourself in the mirror today

have a nice day

and a happy new year to all

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Edan


Israel fought all of it's wars, with the exception of the Yom Kippur Warwith negligable support from the US. Of course, as has been pointed out, that has a great deal to do with the incompetance of her enemies, as well as intelligence gathering, as well as Israel's military.

Who has done and currently uses its veto to prevent the UN doing something about Israel?

Who indeed....

As for the rest, you are quite clearly being absurd. Let's see - we shall stick up Israel against the forces of the US, Russia, or China shall we? And you still say they would win.

Israel as a global superpower - Come on you can do better than that!

As for vassalage - I could have easily replaced Israel with "Japan" and the statement would still have been true.

You can state that all you want, o declarator of delusions of grandeur, but you're the one suffering from delusions...

Nowhere in your post do you provide any solid refutation of any of my claims, so this is a bit rich.

Israel is consistently rated by military experts the most efficient, and certainly one of the most feared, militaries on the face of the planet today. And we're living in an age of truly awesome military power, so that's saying something.

They aren't even in the top five mate. I agree that the Israelis have an excellent military - in fact I would say that they are arguably the best; but there just aren't enough of them to withstand a real superpower. Do you honestly think that the IDF could whip full might of the United States military machine, or the Russians, or the Chinese, or even the British or the French?

You're kidding, right?

True, the Jews haven't done a lot of conquering, but for all the Zulu, Iroquois, and Aztec "dominance," these "empires" were wiped from the face of the map pretty damn quick, you'd have to admit.

That's it - I win - you lose. My sole point in this discussion has been that the game designers seem to be using, for want of a better term, the "imperial" criterion. At least it looks that way if you read the civ descriptions on the CIV III official site, which I recommend you do as well before you start flaming.

It doesn't matter that the empires fell very quickly - after all the British Empire was only dominant for about 100 years (and both the Aztecs and Iroquois beat that handily) - what matters is that they had empires - the Hebrews never did. The Hebrews/Jews/Israelis are simply not one of the world's great civilisations according to the criteria used by the designers.

Look, if you want the designers to change their criteria then ask them to do so; but as it stands the Hebrews don't fit the bill. They aren't my criteria - they belong to the game designers, whose reasons are probably similar to those I gave above. If the game designers want to change the game to include the Hittites, the Minoans, the Assyrians, the Irish, the Scots and of course the Hebrews, then let them do so. I have no objection as long as they don't play favourites or give in to the Israeli radicals who have an over inflated sense of their country's worth to history.

In my very first post I lamented the fact that the game seemed to have no way of recognising the contributions of peoples like the Jews and the Scots who have had disproportionate influence on history without being great civilisations; I even proposed a "great persons" feature to remedy this defect. I still think this is a better solution than expanding the number of civs to ridiculous lengths.

Having said that it seems to me that the whole argument boils down to this:

1) Were the Hebrews ever a great civilisation like the Romans or the Egyptians?

Answer: unequivocally no. But then neither were the Iroquois or Zulu.

OK - so....

2) Do the Hebrews fit the "imperial" criterion?

Answer: unequivocally no. But the rest of the civs in the game seem to - even Carthage which dominated North Africa and was expanding until checked by the Romans.

If you want to argue against (1), then that's fine - we will have to agree on some definition of a "great civilisation". But if you want to argue against (2), then write to Firaxis.

Jews have been notable in the financial history of the world, and I'm not talking about some "Jewish Banking Conspiracy," I'm talking about the decision of illiterate Christians and less-literate Muslims to appoint them court financial specialists, well into the 19th century.

But does this constitute being a great civilisation or rather what I claimed in my very first post - being influential without being dominant?

[Panag]

hi ,

the reasons that Jews became dominant in certain fields , and especially the financial sector is because we where being witheld to practise many jobs , on top of that with our religion we dont have it easy , .....

today we still hold keyjobs , not because we dont let anyone else in those fields , but because we can do those jobs when no-one else does them

since Jews have only two , three with english languages its easy for us to overcome the language barrier , a jew in japan can with great ease talk to a jew in france or russia

we are not a world superpower in military terms , but we have a great deal of combat experience and a way of thinking that many armies withold themselfs from , as compared to other armies we make it easier to act to a given circumstance in the field , we also tend to value more then any other army in the world the well bing of troops in the field , every fourth soldier carries a stretcher , nowhere else in the world is this being done , why do we do that , because we put the value of the individual more then anything else , we train people not only to work in a team but we train also on the individual , unlike other armies where this is considered a no-go , ....

could we stand against a superpower , yes we can , even limited we have done so before and we can do it again , .....

no where else in the world are there bombshelters to procect the entire population , no where else in the world do they make cars that put the human as being more valueable then anything else , not even uncle sam does that , .....

the biggest point of having them join the game would de to creat scenarios , scenarios you cant make without them , .... this way we can all fight on the side we want and see for ourself what we want , ....

have a nice day

[mazzz]

and which suuper power didyou" fight?

panag: we stand against a superpower , yes we can , even limited we have done so before and we can do it again"

[Panag]

Originally posted by mazzz
and which suuper power didyou" fight?

panag: we stand against a superpower , yes we can , even limited we have done so before and we can do it again"

hi ,

look at Israel's history , .....

have a nice day