Israel civ

[Edan]

Originally posted by mazzz
Edan:
"A words definition is based on it's useage, not the sum of the meanings of it's syllables."

look up anti and compare all those words to there base words

Again, I prefer to look up the definition of antisemetism in order to find out the definition of antisemetism. Otherwise, using your logic, I might also conclude that:

a "seahorse" is a horse at sea
that something that was "jury-rigged" was rigged by a jury
"having a drink on the rocks" would mean placing the glass on top of rocks
"the alarm clock will go off" means alarm clock will turn itself off.
"work out of one's home" means working outside one's home.


All of which are incorrect.

[HAND]

Israel Civ certainly should be in there......The depth of their history should be reflected in Civ3....and they're the only nuclear power in the middle-east.. SO FAR!

[mazzz]

yes but edan look those dont have "-" in them, i changle you to find me a word with "-" after a prefix that of any relation to it...

[Panag]

hi ,

can we stay on topic please , .....

have a nice day

[Edan]

Originally posted by mazzz
yes but edan look those dont have "-" in them, i changle you to find me a word with "-" after a prefix that of any relation to it...

: points to "Jury-Rigged" :
And antisemitism is valid both with and with out the "-".

[mazzz]

i dismiss that because none of those of "-" in them i changled you to find a word that has "-" had has no relation to the prefix and the word

[Agathon]

Originally posted by SeferKoheleth
There is weak archeological evidence of the kingdoms of David and Soloman (a couple of monuments inscribed "House of David" etc.).

There is substantial archeological evidence of the later kings of both the Northern and Southern kingdoms... from Assyrian, Egyptian, and Babylonian records (Egyptian records dating to the 11th century b.c.e about pillaging Israel, Assyrian records in the 8th century recording the captivity of the so-called 10 Lost Tribes, Babylonian records of the conquest in 586 b.c.e.)

So, at a minimum, we can place the dominion of the Hebrew Kingdom as about 500-600 years. Quite a substantial accomplishment.

Persian records document the return of Jews following the end of the Babylonian captivity in 516.

From 516 until the Greek conquest, Judea was a province of the Persian Empire with substantial regional autonomy-- de facto independent at times.

In 164, the Maccabean Rebellion overthrew the Greeks and restored independance for nearly a century.

While never "great" in terms of world power, Jewish dominion over Israel was quite longlasting-- far longer than that of the Arabs, Ottomans, Crusaders and British.

Although only a footnote on world history, there were also independent Jewish kingdoms outside of Israel in Ethiopia, Yemen, Arabia, and Khazaria.

I don't know if I'm going to bother again since people don't seem to want to read all my earlier posts.

Again - the notion of "influential individuals" would best be captured by a "great persons" feature - I think this would adequately capture the contribution of the Jewish people to world history. I said this in my very first post on this topic. Same goes for the Scots who have an impressive record in literature and invention.

The Nobel prize thing doesn't matter at all. Anyone who looks at the winners of the literature and peace prizes knows these are often a joke. John Logie Baird didn't win one - but he invented the television!

Again - I don't buy this "Jewish Empire" stuff. There is no evidence to support the claim that the Jews were ever a dominant empire who dominated huge swathes of territory. Who ever called the Jewish King "The Great King"? No one. Like the Scots, the Poles, and many other ethnic groups the Jews have spent the majority of history getting the c**p kicked out of them by whoever was in charge at the time. Their main claim to fame is the indirect transmission of their religious doctrines - but it was INDIRECT - it isn't as if they conquered half the world like Islam did.

See - no empire = no representation in Civ III. It can't be any plainer than that.

[SeferKoheleth]

Originally posted by mazzz
SeferKoheleth:



"While never "great" in terms of world power, Jewish dominion over Israel was quite longlasting-- far longer than that of the Arabs, Ottomans, Crusaders and British."

so what? just because they had the "holy land" longer does not mean there should be a civ...
any way most people calling the selves "hebrew" are really centrail asain Khazars who migrated to europe, thats why there "white"

As the genetic studies I posted earlier prove, the Khazars had effectively NO influence on the Jewish population. Today, a Jew from Morroco is genetically closer to a Jew from Poland than he is to a Morrocan Muslim. The close inter-relatedness of EVERY Jewish community from Tunisia to Germany to India (excepting Ethiopa) proves that virtually all Jews are descended almost entirely from a mid-eastern ancestral population.

As for the Khazars, the historical and genetic evidence suggests that the fable of the entire kingdom converting is just that... a fable. Most likely, only the King and upper-nobility converted, creating a Jewish state with only a minimal converted Jewish population. A group of say 2000 converted nobleman could effectively lead a country... but be far too small a population to have any more than minimal influence on Jewish genetics centuries later.

When I posted links to the studies earlier, someone disputed them with an offhand remark that they studied only "isolated" populations. That is incorrect. The studies selected Jews at random in equal numbers based on country of origin. They studied ALL Jews, not just "isolated" populations.

The critic was correct in one area however-- many Jews DID intermingle and intermarry with the non-Jewish world. However, this was almost exclusively intermarriage OUT, not intermarriage IN (i.e. the intermarried couple became Christian or Muslim, and their decendends ceased to have any trace of Jewish identity). The Jewish population of today decends only from those Jews who did not intermarry and thus maintained their traditions and identity.

[SeferKoheleth]

Originally posted by mazzz
lets take your example, congress is not con-gress, its not antisemetic it is anti-semetic... take note of the seperation.

You can argue grammer all you like... and you'd be right. The word anti-semetic is grammatically incorrect and highly misleading in its definition. But it's also true that the word for 100 years was used exclusively to define hatred of Jews, and was NEVER used to define hatred of Arabs.

Many Western languages have words that don't make sense. Hell, in Spanish the word for Saturday is "sabado" (literally, "Sabbath"). That doesn't make a lot of sense in a 99% Catholic country-- hell, it basically admits that the Jews are right with respect to which day is the 7th day. But it's the language.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

The State of Israeli is composed of Ashkenazic Jews, Oriental Jews, Mahgreb Jews, and some other types, as well as Israeli Arabs, and some Christians floating around in there. It shouldn't be denied that the founding of Israel was mostly the work of Ashkenazic Jews, but these were not "pure Jews" in the sense of them all being Orthodox, or something like that...

In fact, most of the revolutionary Jewish leaders were socialist in inclination and most of the Orthodox refused to fight, citing religious reasons, so in other words, the modern State of Israel is not made up of the "Jews who stayed Jewish" over the course of 1,000 of years of history exclusively, though those are definitely present... there are many "Europeanized" Jews, and in fact, though still constitute the ruling class of Israel.

To respond once again to "No Great Jewish Empire" argument, I say once more: Iroquois? Aztecs? Zulu? With its intelligence and military operations abroad, Israel today has the potential, even, to be a new "Carthage"... an incredibly powerful miniature state...

Although I doubt that Israel will ever march with elephants over the alps.

[mazzz]

so i take it you turn down my channlged edan?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth To respond once again to "No Great Jewish Empire" argument, I say once more: Iroquois? Aztecs? Zulu? With its intelligence and military operations abroad, Israel today has the potential, even, to be a new "Carthage"... an incredibly powerful miniature state...

Lame Lame Lame.

"At its greatest extent, the Five Nations (i.e. the Iroquois) occupied a vast territory around Lakes Ontario, Huron and Erie, in present-day New York state and Pennsylvania and southern Ontario and Quebec."

"Before they overwhelmed the neighboring tribes under their leader Shaka in the early 19th century to form an empire, the Zulu were only one of the many patrilineal Nguni clans in the Mtetwa empire."

"Under a succession of ambitious kings they established a dominion that eventually stretched over most of present-day Mexico. By commerce and conquest, Tenochtitlán came to rule an empire of 400 to 500 small states, comprising by 1519 some five-to six-million people spread over 80,000 square miles."

Now who's ever heard - "The Jews conquered a significant portion of the world and reduced the conquered peoples to subject states". "The Jews were the major trading power in the world". "People would quake in fear at the military prowess of the Jews".

Nobody - because it never happened. Hence they aren't in the game. The Jews are a small people, a minor people, never a great civilisation. But then again so are the Scots, the Canadians, the Poles, etc. Please rid yourself of these delusions of grandeur.


Let me state again - Israel is a very small country that is effectively a vassal of the United States, without which it would be crushed by military and diplomatic means. Israel is by no means a powerful country nor does it have any prospect of becoming the world's dominant power.

nuff said.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Agathon
Now who's ever heard - "The Jews conquered a significant portion of the world and reduced the conquered peoples to subject states". "The Jews were the major trading power in the world". "People would quake in fear at the military prowess of the Jews".

Nobody - because it never happened. Hence they aren't in the game. The Jews are a small people, a minor people, never a great civilisation. But then again so are the Scots, the Canadians, the Poles, etc. Please rid yourself of these delusions of grandeur.

Let me state again - Israel is a very small country that is effectively a vassal of the United States, without which it would be crushed by military and diplomatic means. Israel is by no means a powerful country nor does it have any prospect of becoming the world's dominant power.

nuff said.

You can state that all you want, o declarator of delusions of grandeur, but you're the one suffering from delusions...

Israel was founded and won its first great wars without US Aid. In fact, most State Department officials during the 40s and 50s opposed the creation and backing of Israel for fear of alienating potential Arab allies.

Israel is consistently rated by military experts the most efficient, and certainly one of the most feared, militaries on the face of the planet today. And we're living in an age of truly awesome military power, so that's saying something.

True, the Jews haven't done a lot of conquering, but for all the Zulu, Iroquois, and Aztec "dominance," these "empires" were wiped from the face of the map pretty damn quick, you'd have to admit.

Jews have been notable in the financial history of the world, and I'm not talking about some "Jewish Banking Conspiracy," I'm talking about the decision of illiterate Christians and less-literate Muslims to appoint them court financial specialists, well into the 19th century.

I have no delusions of grandeur - I am not pro-Israeli in any way really. I am not Jewish, I do not support Judaism (I also oppose Christianty and Islam), and in fact, I find most actions of the Israel government loathsome and repugnant. However, because of their incredible military prowess, if not size, because of their many victories against overwhelming forces, because of the cultural influence the Jews have had on the three major religions and in the spheres of art, science, etc. - far more so than Scots if you REALLY want to go at it - and because of their unique culture, I feel the Israelis should be included in the game. I am an atheist of Scottish-Irish descent. Still, I enjoy playing as the Chinese, the Ottomans, the Germans, the Aztecs - why not the Jews? I have nothing to prove and Civ is a private game, not a political statement (nor should it be).

I also feel that the Iroquois, Zulu, and Aztecs should remain in the game, and that other cultures or "empires" as you call them that are now dust and were defeated quickly and leave, in the modern world, little imprint, should be included in the game...

BECAUSE THE MORE, THE BETTER.

Anyone else agree?

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Agathon

Let me state again - Israel is a very small country that is effectively a vassal of the United States, without which it would be crushed by military and diplomatic means.

Oh, and one other thing: read a little bit about Israel history before you make this ludicrous statement... Israel's nuclear power was STOLEN from America by the Mossad long before America came to stand by Israel as an ally, and Israel has turned to China and Russia many times for support when the US has faltered, and played the Arabs against each other despite their professed desire to "drive Israel into the sea," in numerous acts of diplomacy that rival anything historically committed by any of the current civs in the game.

[Edan]

Originally posted by mazzz
so i take it you turn down my channlged edan?

I'm not sure I even understood your channlged, but I presented my side of the case more than adequately.