REAL HEROES NAMES for each civ (please participate in this project)

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Kickasso
Ok..so as I see you've found golden mean for English Heroes List

Let it be the following:

3. Richard the Lionheart - for non-english people he's one of the most
famous guys in English history

Out of the list: Montgomery - sorry but he's not so victorious as others; Kitchener and Monk - not so brilliant as Marlborough; Boudicca - not "complete" English Hero (pity isn't it?)

I agree with you he's famous, Kickasso- even has a statue outside the Houses of Parliament. But he was an ineffective King of England (an absentee ruler, present for a bare six months), more Angevin/French in his outlook and interests- hardly spoke English. Also, his victories are marred by excessive and wanton cruelty to non-combatants- Jews and Orthodox Christians. In a way, it would be like being proud of an Einsatzgruppe commander if you were German....

I think you can see it like this- there's the historical Richelieu, and then there's the character in Dumas's novel. Similarly, there's the historical Richard, and then there's the Walter Scott and Hollywood creation. Of course, even an absentee monarch might seem a good ruler in comparison with his successor and brother, John Lackland, who lost the possessions in France, save for Gascony and the Channel Islands, alienated the nobility, carried out pogroms/extortion against the Jews, and had his nephew Arthur murdered.

http://www.igc.apc.org/ddickerson/cliffords-tower.html

But bear in mind- Richard's excessive taxation to pay for his Crusades, paved the way for many of the disasters of John's reign.

If you won't have Monck then at least have Cromwell- he organised the New Model Army (England's first professional army) his rule saw the foundation of the military successes against enemies at home (the Scots, the Irish, the Royalists) and abroad- the Dutch, the Spanish, and he did what the Stuart monarchs could not- united England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales under one rule.

[Kickasso]

Sorry, friends for so long delay in posting - I was sick (and still slightly sick and bedridden- typical influenza)

As soon as I be back I finish All Lists - I found 2 last guys to complete this work!

See you very soon now!

[Signa]

Idea For A Greek Hero

I know I'm about a month late or so, but there hero you need to know about...

Parmenio

He was Alexander's right hand man, just like Mark Antony to Caesar. He was a brillant tactican, and he did a lot of the actual leading due to Alexander was off fighting in the battle himself. At the Battle near Arbela, his tactic stunt with Thessalian cavalry was the only thing that kept the Macedonian line from rupturing, giving time for Alexander's Companions to force Darius to flee. He also instrumented the un-famous light cavalry charge and outflanking of the Thebian phalanx at Chaeronea. Even before that he traveled throughout Ionia (back when he worked for Philip) and scouted out possible battlefields, the Persian defenders, and the fortified cities (giving Alexander invaluable knowledge of the defenses of the city of Halicanarsius (I butchered that spelling ). Without his brillant tactics and advice, Alexander might of lost a Gancius. He is not famous at all, but due to the smushing of the Hellan civilizations into the "Greeks" and the need for another one I think he should be in for a Great Leader, which he was by all means.

[SieGermans]

redundant, and probably well known, but fun anyways
American heros
Washington
Ticonderoga
Jackson
Perry
Grant
Sherman
Roosevelt
Pershing
MacArthur
Eisenhower
Bradley
Nimitz
Wilson
North (both Vietnam)
Schwarzkopf
Powell

[SieGermans]

and Patton ^

[Cairo_East]

Two for Americans - Two for Zulu

For perfectly fitting the concept of an American "hero", the one person who hasn't been mentioned is Stephen Decatur. Decatur almost single-handedly kept the USA from falling prey to English and Barbary economic warfare by fighting and winning key battles at sea. Without Decatur, the US Navy would not have beenas strong as it was during the early 19th century and overall foreign policy would have been severely weakened without him. You could say that Decatur "made" the U.S. Navy.

Also, Persching must be included on the list. He was the single most important general in America from 1865 to the present.

As a student of African history, I must agree with most of the Zulu choices, although I've never heard of Nehanda. I'll try to look him up. Two other choices for Zulu political heroes would be Dingiswayo, who ruled what would eventually become the Zulu nation when Shaka was the chief military strategist. Without Dingiswayo, Shaka would certainly have never risen to the heights of power that he rose to. Also, the current leader of the Zulu politcal party IFP, M. Buthelezi, might be a possible choice. It is a bit of a stretch, though.

[SieGermans]

Would you consider it reasonable to put Boer heros in with Zulu heros? I mean, they basically fought alongside each other against the English during the 1890s. Kruger is the leader of the Boer uprising. Since Boers are just as much a part of South African history as Zulus are it only seems feasible.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by SieGermans
Would you consider it reasonable to put Boer heros in with Zulu heros? I mean, they basically fought alongside each other against the English during the 1890s. Kruger is the leader of the Boer uprising. Since Boers are just as much a part of South African history as Zulus are it only seems feasible.

Mmm, makes as much sense as having Sitting Bull as an American (not Native American) hero.

I can just see Eugene Terre Blanche and Hendrik Verwoerd's reactions at being classed as honorary Zulus.

'Black people were involved as combatants, to a limited degree, though both sides initially agreed that they were to be employed in a noncombatant role. At least 15000 blacks were armed by the British and served in mobile British columns that tried to track down the Boer commando's.

ii About 25000 served as armed blockhouse guards.

iii They were also employed on the Imperial Military Railway system. '

and:

'The Boer Wars was the name given to the South African Wars of 1880-1 and 1899-1902, that were fought between the British and the descendants of the Dutch settlers (Boers) in Africa. After the first Boer War William Gladstone granted the Boers self-government in the Transvaal.

The Boers, under the leadership of Paul Kruger, resented the colonial policy of Joseph Chamberlain and Alfred Milner which they feared would deprive the Transvaal of its independence. After receiving military equipment from Germany, the Boers had a series of successes on the borders of Cape Colony and Natal between October 1899 and January 1900. Although the Boers only had 88,000 soldiers, led by the outstanding soldiers such as Louis Botha, and Jan Smuts, the Boers were able to successfully besiege the British garrisons at Ladysmith, Mafeking and Kimberley.

Army reinforcements arrived in South Africa in 1900 and counter-offences relieved the garrisons and enabled the British to take control of the Boer capital, Pretoria, on 5th June. For the next two years groups of Boer commandos raided isolated British units in South Africa. Lord Kitchener, the Chief of Staff in South Africa, reacted to this by destroying Boer farms and moving civilians into concentration camps. '

Timeline for the Anglo-Zulu War:

'Anglo-Zulu War [1879]
Ultimatum Tree [11 Dec. 1878]


Battle of Isandlwana [22 Jan. 1879]
Fugitives' Drift [22 Jan. 1879]
Battle of Rorke's Drift [22-23 Jan. 1879]


Battle of Inyezane [22 Jan. 1879]
Siege of Eshowe [23 Jan to 3 April 1879]
Battle of Gingindlovu [2 Apr. 1879]


Battle of Ntombe [12 Mar. 1879]
Battle of Hlobane and Kambula [28 and 29 Mar. 1879]

The Death of the Prince Imperial

The Second Invasion

Battle of Ulundi [4 Jul. 1879]'

The Zulu War was over 2 years before the first Anglo-Boer War began.

One of the excuses given by apartheid apologists for discrimination against black South Africans was the arming of them by the British in the Anglo-Boer Wars.

See: http://www.artsdiary.org.za/guide99/boerwar.html

[WesW]

If you guys have settled most of the civs, could someone post a file with the results all on one list? No numbering or anything, so that we can cut-n-paste into the bic.

[Beren]

Possible Egyptian heros:
Ramses, Cheops, Khufu, Mentuhotep, Seti, Na'rmer, Thutmose, Haremhah, Seti, Hatshepsut, Amosis, Menes, Amenophis, Necho, Nasser, Mubarak

Possible Babylonian heros:
Nebuchadnezzar, Belshezzar, Croesus, Telepinus, Nebuch, Astyages, Nabonidus, Nabopolassar
(If meant to include entire Mesopotamia:
Sargon, Sennacherib, Ashurbanipal, Shalmaneser, Essarhaddon, Ashurnasilpal, Adad-Niravi, Shamah, Urukagina, Lugalzaggesi, Enheduanna, Mesannepada, Gilgamesh, Naram Sin, Rimush, Lugalbanda, Enmerkar, Tigliathpileser)

Possible Persian heros:
Cyrus, Darius, Achaemenes, Bessus, Mardonius, Cambyses, Spitamenes, Artaphernes, Datis, Rukr, Hormidz, Chosroes II, Yakub, Bahram, Yazdegird, Mohammed Shah, Kavadh, Mondhir

Thanks to AoE/AoK

I don't know about selecting out of these names. Somebody else will have to do that.

[Taxidopolis]

[/QUOTE[I'll reiterate my reasons for not including Boudicca- she was a Celt, and as the Celts and English are included in Civ II, it seems pointless to include her here in a list of 'English' heroes, when 'English' is a term derived from the invaders/conquerors/successors of the Celts, post-Roman exodus.
Even if we mean 'English' to be inclusive of the pre-Anglo-Saxon invasion, it makes as much sense to include the Golden Horde or Tartars on a list of Russian heroes, simply becuase they once lived in areas of what is now modern Russia.
'British' would be a more correct term, but inevitably you would get an even longer argument about which Scots and Welsh and Irish commanders/leaders to include, and in any case, the lack of naval leaders already distorts the picture somewhat, when British is more often used in an 18th Century and later, British Empire context.
[/QUOTE]

This has been irritating me, the whole 'Celts' notion. The only Celts known to have called themselves by that name were in Gaul, one of the three tribes mentioned by Caesar. The rest is a mishmash of modern invention, conflation of art style with a highly variable archaeological material culture, the fallacy of equating a language label (celtic) with an actual people.

Simply because Civ2 perpetuates this pseudo-history doesn't mean that we should allow it to continue forever and ever unchallenged.

Boudica was not a Celt. She was if anything British as you say. The Roman writers were aware of this, as distinct from being 'Celts'.My point in appealing for her inclusion in a list of English heroes is that the British native culture was never appropriated by the Romans...witness the survival of Cornish as a language up until a mere two hundred years ago. The roots of England surely lie within the cultural swirl of Boudicca's time, she and her British tribe are factually known and known to have resided in the East of modern day England, she is rightly regarded as a hero by modern English folk and should be included in the list.

If you stick to the modern meaning of England under the terms of your post then everybody post the 1066 conquest - when for a couple of hundred years 'England' was ruled by French speaking royal families - must be excluded from the list by default. The English nation had no sooner formed via the machinations of the likes of Offa, Alfred, Athelstan etc than it was conqured by William (himself having Viking connections if IIRC)

Anyways...Bring Back Boudica

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Taxidopolis


This has been irritating me, the whole 'Celts' notion. The only Celts known to have called themselves by that name were in Gaul, one of the three tribes mentioned by Caesar.
Boudica was not a Celt. She was if anything British as you say. The Roman writers were aware of this, as distinct from being 'Celts'.My point in appealing for her inclusion in a list of English heroes is that the British native culture was never appropriated by the Romans...witness the survival of Cornish as a language up until a mere two hundred years ago. The roots of England surely lie within the cultural swirl of Boudicca's time, she and her British tribe are factually known and known to have resided in the East of modern day England, she is rightly regarded as a hero by modern English folk and should be included in the list.

If you stick to the modern meaning of England under the terms of your post then everybody post the 1066 conquest - when for a couple of hundred years 'England' was ruled by French speaking royal families - must be excluded from the list by default. The English nation had no sooner formed via the machinations of the likes of Offa, Alfred, Athelstan etc than it was conqured by William (himself having Viking connections if IIRC)

Anyways...Bring Back Boudica

It's difficult to know where to begin to correct your misconceptions; the Celts are a people/s defined by their language- they never called themselves celts- why would they use a Greek term for themselves?- but were more likely to have used a variant of 'gael'- hence Galatia in Turkey, Galicia in former Celtiberica, Gaul in modern day France and Belgium, the Gaels of Ireland, Scotland and Man and as the French would have it, the Pays de Galles in Wales.
I was referring to Firaxis's separations of cultures/civilizations, and the great heroes generated by Civ 3. Given that the English (actually implying the British of the Empire) and the Celts are both present in Civ II, and that Firaxis for some unknown reason donated a Scots hero to the English, the idea was to sort out lists that had a logic to them.
Boudicca would not have recognised the term English or England, concepts that came into being centuries after her death. The first Saxon king to claim lordship over the former Roman province of Britannia called himself Aelle Bretwalda- lord of Britain.
I do not know why you say she was not a Celt. Do you imply she spoke a non-Celtic language? That she was a Pict?
As for her being 'British' as opposed to Celtic- the Celts are normally separated into two main linguistic groupings- the P Celts and the Q Celts. The Roman name Briton/Britannia and the Greek Pretanike (see Pytheas of Massilia)- if they had been speaking with a Q Celt in Britannia it would have been Quriteni in Latin, Kruthenike in Greek- cruts instead of brits.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Kickasso
I remind that I need you comments on the Iroqs list

1. Tecumseh
2. Red Cloud
3. Black Hawk
4. Sitting Bull
5. Crazy Horse
6. Geronimo
7. Pontiac
8. Joseph Circa OR Louis Riel OR Joseph Brant

This is NOT an Iroquois list!!!

Here is a proper one (alphabetic order):

1. Brant, Joseph (= Tyendinaga)
2. Canaqueese (= Jan Smit)
3. Canassatego
4. Cook, Lewis (Louis) (= Akiatonharokwen)
5. Cornplanter (= Jan Abeel, Kiontwogky)
6. Dekanawidah
7. King Hendrick (= Tiyanoga)
8. Honyere Tehawenkarogwen
9. Sagoyewatha (= Red Jacket)
10. Skenandoah (= Oskanondonha)

[easthaven]

Two great military commanders missing.

For the Romans you guys didn't have this guy in the list.

JULIUS CEASAR! He was a great general, one of the best! Just because he was a politician in the end doesn't take away his accomplishments as a General.

Octavian Ceasar should not be on the list. He started the Pax Romana and it lasted 200 years but he wasn't really involved in the military that much, especially since it was a very peaceful time period. He did make Rome rich, he use to say "I found Rome a town of brick and left it a city of marble" or something of that effect, but as for military commander, I don't think so.

And for the Greeks you missed a very very important person.

ALEXANDER THE GREAT! Possibly the best commander of all time! Come on fellas.

[Taxidopolis]

Originally posted by molly bloom


It's difficult to know where to begin to correct your misconceptions; the Celts are a people/s defined by their language- they never called themselves celts- why would they use a Greek term for themselves?- but were more likely to have used a variant of 'gael'- hence Galatia in Turkey, Galicia in former Celtiberica, Gaul in modern day France and Belgium, the Gaels of Ireland, Scotland and Man and as the French would have it, the Pays de Galles in Wales.
I was referring to Firaxis's separations of cultures/civilizations, and the great heroes generated by Civ 3. Given that the English (actually implying the British of the Empire) and the Celts are both present in Civ II, and that Firaxis for some unknown reason donated a Scots hero to the English, the idea was to sort out lists that had a logic to them.
Boudicca would not have recognised the term English or England, concepts that came into being centuries after her death. The first Saxon king to claim lordship over the former Roman province of Britannia called himself Aelle Bretwalda- lord of Britain.

To equate language use with ethnicity is grossly oversimplifying this. Americans speak English, Australians speak English, but we hardly label them as being English do we ? To treat the many different European groups of Roman and pre-Roman times that happen to share a related language as the same group - the Celts - is equally fallacious.

To correct your own misconception, and at the risk of repeating myself, the only people of this time to have actually called themselves Celts, or more correctly 'Celtae', were those reported by Caesar. They were in Gaul. Two other tribal names in the same region are given. These three tribes were different each from the other. As were the Iceni over the water in what is now Eastern England different. Sure, they shared a related language but this hardly makes them the same people/s. In that sense Boudica was most certainly not a Celt, she spoke a variant of the geographically wide ranging language labelled as Celtic, a very early branch of the Indo-European language tree which most of the European languages have come from.

Your other minor points: The Greek term has no direct bearing on anything here and I don't see why you even mention it. The Celtae in Gaul were speaking for themselves, albeit as reported by Caesar. They were not having words put into their mouths. You are perhaps confusing the Greek world view of circa 700BC which conveniently quartered the 'barbaric' world outside of their own, all peoples to the north being the Keltoi. How this relates archaeologically to Hallstatt and the subsequent La Tene horizons several hundreds of years later and over distant geographical locations, particularly in insular Britain, is pure conjecture.

Boudica pre-dated England and would obviously not be aware of the term England - What a daft point. This is like denying the importance of Babbage in computing simply because Babbage was unaware of the information revolution, or denying the part the Pilgrim Fathers played in American history because they were unaware of the modern political formation known as the United States .
More to the point is that she would not have been aware of, and couldn't have cared less about if she had, the contemporary Celtae on the continent. She was Iceni. The Romans never completely subjugated what is modern day England, let alone other areas. Nor did the Anglo-Saxons or the French.The survival of the Cornish language, another Celtic-language variant, until modern times is indisputable evidence of this. Just as the modern day inhabitants of Cornwall, English people, take a great pride in an insular cultural heritage that pre-dates the Romans, surely the modern day inhabitants of East Anglia, also English people, should be allowed to take pride in Boudica, as their earliest recorded war leader ? Her bones are dissolved in English soil, not in Gaul.

As for the bretwalda or byrytenwealda (Aelle Bretwalda is a new one to me) any ruler would have claimed this title and I ran through the best known historical bretwaldas we can be sure of prior to the Norman conquest. According to your simple linkage of language=cultural group, the just formed English(nee Anglo-Saxon) group finishes with the invasion of William - a French speaker of Viking lineage. Which severely limits the choice of Great Leaders for Civ 3 doesn't it.

Come on, Bring back Boudica I say