REAL HEROES NAMES for each civ (please participate in this project)

[Cossack]

To Molly Bloom,

I have no doubt as to your military knowledge, but as I said before, great leaders should be known to the common man and therefore I refer you to the previous comment by EL awrence. Seems that your favourite really isn't that well known.

Kind regards
Ïîøåë òû

The English Cossack

[Kickasso]

Guys, Cossack and Molly, please be more constructive in your discussion.

I'm glad that you all know your country/nation history so well and both really concerned to help me and try to offer right selection among great number of English heroes.

But please avoid any insults (Cossack, I don't think Molly knows russian but I know) on this forum and respect each other's opinion. I will be very dissapointed if you quarrel here because of your different views on history.

Thus I have 11 candidates to English Heroes List:

1. Boudicca - at least 6 people here mentioned her
2. Alfred the Great
3. Harold - Cossack and couple other guys offered him
4. Richard the Lionheart
5. Edward I 'Longshanks'
6. Henry V
7. George Monk - supported by Molly Bloom and one-two others
8. Kitchener - El Awrence, you was really persistent
9. James Wolfe - Cossack it's your candidate with great story
10. Wellington
11. Montgomery

Who do you think must be excluded? I know less about Harold, Kitchener and Wolfe but I'm not Englishman to make final decision. You do it please - I will be waiting your top 8 lists and their mean value will be the final list.

Is that idea appropriate here?

Kickasso

[Dr. Nick]

Woohoo!



Also, I'd scrap Harold and Richard the Lionhearted... Harold won Stamford Bridge which, in the big picture, was supposed to be the diversion. And Richard, well, Holywood and anti-John monks have made him a terribly overrated historical figure.

[GodKing]

For an american, why not Ike. (Eisenhower). He was allied commander in ww2 prior to being president from 1953-61. Also, Roosivelt was in the Rough Riders durring the US - Spanish war.

For the Iroquois:
Tecumseh 1786-1813, Shawnee Leader & war chief
Pontiac (no, not the car, but the man who the car was named after) 1720-1769 Ottawa Chief. Liked to play Lacross with "White Mans Head".
Joseph circa 1875. Chief of the Nez Perce.

A lot of good names, places & dates can be found on Historychannel.com

Peace

Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it

[godinex]

Are You interested in Costa Rican Ones???

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Kickasso
Guys, Cossack and Molly, please be more constructive in your discussion.

I'm glad that you all know your country/nation history so well and both really concerned to help me and try to offer right selection among great number of English heroes.

But please avoid any insults (Cossack, I don't think Molly knows russian but I know) on this forum and respect each other's opinion. I will be very dissapointed if you quarrel here because of your different views on history.

Thus I have 11 candidates to English Heroes List:

1. Boudicca - at least 6 people here mentioned her
2. Alfred the Great
3. Harold - Cossack and couple other guys offered him
4. Richard the Lionheart
5. Edward I 'Longshanks'
6. Henry V
7. George Monk - supported by Molly Bloom and one-two others
8. Kitchener - El Awrence, you was really persistent
9. James Wolfe - Cossack it's your candidate with great story
10. Wellington
11. Montgomery

Who do you think must be excluded? I know less about Harold, Kitchener and Wolfe but I'm not Englishman to make final decision. You do it please - I will be waiting your top 8 lists and their mean value will be the final list.

Is that idea appropriate here?

Kickasso

Thanks again for your comments- still think you're doing a great job.

I'll reiterate my reasons for not including Boudicca- she was a Celt, and as the Celts and English are included in Civ II, it seems pointless to include her here in a list of 'English' heroes, when 'English' is a term derived from the invaders/conquerors/successors of the Celts, post-Roman exodus.
Even if we mean 'English' to be inclusive of the pre-Anglo-Saxon invasion, it makes as much sense to include the Golden Horde or Tartars on a list of Russian heroes, simply becuase they once lived in areas of what is now modern Russia.
'British' would be a more correct term, but inevitably you would get an even longer argument about which Scots and Welsh and Irish commanders/leaders to include, and in any case, the lack of naval leaders already distorts the picture somewhat, when British is more often used in an 18th Century and later, British Empire context.

If I may, could I offer some comments on the list as is?

i) Keep Alfred- defended the kingdom of Wessex against Guthrum's Danes, organised a navy to combat further Viking attacks, was an able and learned king, did much to increase 'English' culture and civilization, encouraged links with the Carolingian Empire and the Mediterranean. Also represents early 'English' history

ii) Keep Harold Godwineson- the last of the 'English' rulers, prior to the Norman French conquest- his forced march south from the battle with Harald Hardrada and Tostig and the valiant fight against William the Bastard are more of a chivalric epic than many a later mediaeval romance.

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titles/1841762113

iii) Keep Longshanks- the Hammer of the Scots (and the Welsh) you need someone from early mediaeval England that personifies the successes of the Anglo-Norman rulers and their struggles to subdue the Welsh and Scots.

http://www.britannia.com/history/monarchs/mon30.html

iv) Keep Henry V- immortalized on film by Olivier (during another struggle against a Continental based foe) and Branagh in modern times, and in Shakespeare's (mostly lacklustre) play- the famous St Crispin Crispian's Day speech, 'Once more unto the breach' and the battle of Agincourt encapsulate for some an ideal of 'English' heroism.

v) There is no-one from England's Golden Age ( Tudor and Stuart and Commonwealth), as the defeats inflicted on Philip II of Spain were almost entirely naval victories, and for reasons already stated, you have decided to exclude naval commanders, as the great leaders are generated on land in the game. This being the case, then my suggestion for Monck still stands- less controversial than Mountjoy in Ireland, or Cromwell in Ireland or Scotland or England. He represents the beginnings of 'English/British' Empire with several victories over the Dutch and their best naval commanders, Tromp and De Ruyter, but is also known for his victories over the Scots on land- and as I have mentioned elsewhere, did a little something to restore the monarchy and parliamentary rule.

vi) The Duke of Marlborough- almost entirely consistently victorious in various conflicts with the armies of Louis XIV, in partnership with Prince Eugene of Savoy- and of course ancestor of Churchill.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/articles/08083.html

vii) Wolfe's victory at the Heights of Abraham represents the unorthodox aspect of the 'English/British' army that I admire so much (see also Orde Wingate, q.v.)- it was the death knell for the long reign of the French in North America, led to the formation of Canada (a country I love) and again encapsulates for some the idea of the 'English/British' hero, like Lord Nelson, sacrificing all for country.

http://encarta.msn.com/index/conciseindex/54/0543B000.htm?z=1&pg=2&br=1

viii) Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington- victorious in India and the Pensinsula Wars in Spain against the Bonapartist forces, and of course at that moderately well-known engagement, the Battle of Waterloo- a close run thing, nonetheless, but which saw the end of French Imperial ambitions (despite Napoleon III's dreams) in continental Europe. If we can't have Nelson, then his land based counterpart should be in.

http://www.britannia.com/bios/wellesley.html

I did not include Montgomery, beacuse there is still controversy, even amongst the British, as to his abilities as a commander- although I incline to view him as an able opponent for Erwin Rommel.

I have not included Kitchener (sorry El Awrence) because I believe his victory at Omdurman and his raising of the 'New Armies' and prescient view of WWI are for me overshadowed by his tactical shortsightedness during Gallipoli, and his involvement in the Boer Wars.

Richard the Lionheart I have not included because too many of his victories in the Holy Land were characterized by the concomitant massacre of Jews and Orthodox Christians, and because Salah ud Din better personifies chivalry than he does (for me). As a ruler of England he was ineffective.

I hope you find these observations helpful- to me a hero is not someone who happens to be well-known simply because he was on a poster, or there's a mediaeval romance about him. History is a process of remembering, forgetting and rediscovering, and the forging of England's first professional army, the New Model Army, should not go unheralded, nor should the English Commonwealth and its republican experiment.

[Encomium]

Let me just add that PERSHING and EISENHOWER should be American leaders.

[Kickasso]

Cool, isn't it?

Americans brought many new candidates - thanks guys! Now I have to introduce updated...

American Heroes List:
1. Washington
2. Grant
3. Lee
4. Sherman
5. Jackson
6. MacArthur
7. Patton
8. Pershing OR Eisenhower OR Roosivelt - 3 new persons! I personally prefer Pershing because his clear military history and also because I know a little about other two...but you probably prefer Eisenhower - right?


Iroquios updated Heroes List:
1. Tecumseh
2. Red Cloud
3. Black Hawk
4. Sitting Bull
5. Crazy Horse
6. Geronimo
7. Pontiac
8. Joseph Circa OR Louis Riel OR Joseph Brant (thanks to GodKing and Tingkai)

Only one question to experts: Are they all Iroquios or partly Sioux, Apache and other tribe heroes?

Regarding English list, thanks Molly for your message but I will also wait Cossack's vote and after that get the final decision.

godinex Are You interested in Costa Rican Ones???

Well who were tribes who lived on that territory before it named Costa Rica? Maya? if so it's optionally interesting...(i'd say more personal than project interest)

[Rosacrux]

Drop Ike and Roosevelt

There is no debate - Ike was 99% a politician or politician-pet and 1% a military commander. Of course the size of the allied forces and the fact that they were multinational, demanded a good politician in the highest chair, rather than a solid commander. But he didn't do much - other won this war for him.

And if Roosevelt is FDR... hell, the man is certainly the best president USA ever had (not that the competition is excactly astounding ) but not a military leader by any account.

If you go for a WW2 era military leader (and I think you should) try Patton. Solid leadership, aggresive, loved by his soldiers, won great victories.

And... Since USA is the world leading power nowadays and it's forces have been tried in the field of war recently... why not "stormin" Norman or Colin Powel?

Edit

Oops... you got Patton there already. OK, the comments stand though.

[molly bloom]

Re: Drop Ike and Roosevelt

Originally posted by Rosacrux
There is

And if Roosevelt is FDR... hell, the man is certainly the best president USA ever had (not that the competition is excactly astounding ) but not a military leader by any account.

And... Since USA is the world leading power nowadays and it's forces have been tried in the field of war recently... why not "stormin" Norman or Colin Powel?

Edit

Oops... you got Patton there already. OK, the comments stand though.

I suspect the reason for not including Schwarzkopf and Colin Powell is the obvious one- the triumph of propaganda over facts.
This is not to gainsay their victories, but to merely point out that in compiling lists of national heroes based on military victories or strategy, they hardly compare with Turenne, Marlborough, Sun Tzu or Tuthmosis III.

They should not be included for this main reason, that they have not yet stood the test of time, and history's judgment.

The Roosevelt being referenced is F.D.R.'s relative, I suspect, Theodore. Again, I think the reason for including him is less to do with military capabilities (and if we are talking about heroes/great leaders being generated by battlefield victories, surely that is important) but with the beneficial aura conferred on the part he played in the Spanish-American War, from his successful stint as President.

I find it odd that Nathan Bedford Forrest, a much better tactician and military leader would not be included- even though I loathe the principles for which he fought.

http://ngeorgia.com/people/forrest.html

[Taxidopolis]

Originally posted by Kickasso

1. Boudicca - at least 6 people here mentioned her
2. Alfred the Great
3. Harold - Cossack and couple other guys offered him
4. Richard the Lionheart
5. Edward I 'Longshanks'
6. Henry V
7. George Monk - supported by Molly Bloom and one-two others
8. Kitchener - El Awrence, you was really persistent
9. James Wolfe - Cossack it's your candidate with great story
10. Wellington
11. Montgomery

Who do you think must be excluded? I know less about Harold, Kitchener and Wolfe but I'm not Englishman to make final decision. You do it please - I will be waiting your top 8 lists and their mean value will be the final list.

Kickasso - why is it necessary to drop any of these leaders ? Doesn't the editor support more than 8 leader names ? Last time I used it I did a complete rewrite of city names, extra to the ones originally in the list, no probs doing that....and I just checked the leader list and see it has room for lots more names than are in at present. Excuse the question if it's andwered elsewhere, I aint seen it in the thread.

[Cossack]

To Kickasso and Molly Bloom,

Molly Bloom's list is pretty top notch now so I will concede on the Monck issue, shame we can't get any Naval Great Leaders in the game, as so many of ours our, particularly with our Unique unit being the Man 'o War. Apologies for the Russian abuse, bad day at the office.

Cheers

Cossack

[Kickasso]

Ok..so as I see you've found golden mean for English Heroes List

Let it be the following:

1. Alfred the Great - no opposition

2. Harold Godwineson - fresh new

3. Richard the Lionheart - for non-english people he's one of the most
famous guys in English history

4. Edward I 'Longshanks' - no opposition

5. Henry V - the same

6. Duke of Marlborough - merit alternative to Kitchener and Monk

7. James Wolfe - no opposition but less glorious than any other (but seems excellent soldier)

8. Wellington - any oppositions?

That's it!!!

Out of the list: Montgomery - sorry but he's not so victorious as others; Kitchener and Monk - not so brilliant as Marlborough; Boudicca - not "complete" English Hero (pity isn't it?)


For American Heroes list is the same:
1. Washington
2. Grant
3. Lee
4. Pershing
5. Sherman
6. Jackson
7. MacArthur
8. Patton

I remind that I need you comments on the Iroqs list

1. Tecumseh
2. Red Cloud
3. Black Hawk
4. Sitting Bull
5. Crazy Horse
6. Geronimo
7. Pontiac
8. Joseph Circa OR Louis Riel OR Joseph Brant

Also there 2 positions of 128 are vacant: last Zulu and Japanese heroes

Thanks to all for almost finished work!...

P.S. Cossack, where do you work in Moscow? You have wrote about some hassles - if you need any help/advice/... write me on kickasso@c4.com and we can meet to disscuss any worried issue. Regards!

[Salvor]

I'm kind of a latecomer to this thread, and must say I'm impressed with what I've read here, and not having to sift through pages of mindless flames was very nice, for once.

I don't really want to get into the English debate, but I have to say I think the inclusion of Richard I is a poor one. Maybe you could put him on the French list. After all, he lived there, he ruled there, he spoke their language, his wife was from there as were both his parents (in fact his mother was Queen there for a while), and he was buried there. And he considered himself a subject of the French king as vassal for his lands in Aquitaine and Anjou (but I think he ruled Normandy, Brittany, and Gascony outright -- my memory isn't what it used to be so I might be wrong there).

I also have a question about the American list. When you say Jackson, do you mean Andrew Jackson or Thomas J. Jackson? Both could qualify, as both were very inspirational and effective military leaders.

As for the Iroquois list, I don't think any of those were Iroquois, but I take their inclusion as representative of all native American people, so don't object to their non-Iroquois background. But Sitting Bull was a shaman, not a military leader. He didn't participate in any battles. He was a great man, but not a military hero. I would exclude him on those grounds.

As for the French, all I'll say is I was surprised that Marshall Ney was dismissed so quickly.

As for the Romans, why limit them to the old Roman Empire? You include Mexican heroes with the Aztecs, and modern Greeks with the Greeks, so why not include more modern Italian heroes? Victor Emmanuel (sp?) comes to mind immediately, and I'm sure you could add one of the Medicis, or other leaders from after the fall of Rome. I'd leave Il Duce out, though.

You could use the same premise to fill out your Zulu list. Although folks like Biko, Tutu, and Mandela are peace-lovers, there have got to be other modern Africans with creditable military records. Sorry I don't know enough about that part of history to contribute much.

[GodKing]

I suspect the Jackson listed on the American list was T.J. 'Stonewall' Jackson, Confederite General of the US Civil War. But you are correct that we do have several military leaders named Jackson, so why not let the name represent them all.

I think most people are acceptable to the idea of the Iroquois representing all the native North American tribes (US & Canada - but sorry not Mexico or the other Central American countries). It would make a great scenario later on to diferentiate the tribes.... By my understanding, the Iroquois were a fairly peacefull people.

Circa was not a last name, I used it in the date to mean on or about that year. I don't think that Joseph had a last name, but I am not sure. As there are two people with the name Joseph, why not just use Joseph?

Ike was a politician first, and Pershing was a good general. Forrest was a great general, possibly one of our best (tactical wise), but an embarisment to the country for his pollitics, thus I would not want to glorify him in this game.

In the game, the great leaders are most often used (at least by myself) to rush construction on some wonders. Thus I do not think that only there tactical genius should be used as criteria, but there ability to lead not only in war but in peace and to help their county in other peacefull areas. Eisenhower was the mastermind behind the construction of the US Interstate highway system. Although he didn't come up with the idea, as president he was instrumental in pushing the idea thru Congress and getting the money to spend on it. I don't know how many people are familiar with our Interstate Hichway system, but as a Civil Engineer I do believe it to be one of the modern wonders of the world. (at least a minor one )

Thanks for reading. Sorry about the spelling - I do stink at it even after 30 odd years. Peace.