Extra Pack Finalization Project (Part 3)

[Zealot]

Hum, Wernazuma III, could you please change the name of the Portuguese leader to João II? Ecowiz is right, there were 5 kings called João.

And where in the world did you get the idea that the Portuguese shunned Democracy?!?
Portugal Democratical revolution was one of the most peaceful in the world. Only one person got killed in the whole country!
I propose that the shunned gov should be Despotism. Because there wasn't any Despot in the Portuguese history (or that I can remember).

The portuguese unit, if it is the Nau (we, portuguese, haven't really decided what will be our final word about it), it must have at least 5 movement points, to reflect the exploration of the seas. And it must be able to cross over oceans (the Discovery of Brazil in 1500 reflects it).

[Wernazuma III]

Fresno: Changed the Meppel/Hoggeveen thing. I want to keep up the title king, because "Stadtholder" seems to be too diminutive. It's like calling the american leader "governor" or "viceroy", after all stadtholder was the title under spanish rule, wasn't it?

Zealot: Changed Joao to Joao II

I propose that the shunned gov should be Despotism. Because there wasn't any Despot in the Portuguese history (or that I can remember).

*cough*Salazar*cough*
I'm thinking about making Communism the shunned government, but I'm not really sure, AFAIK the portuguese democratic tradition doesn't trace very far back. Most people here would wish "their" civs to favor democracy. We all hope though that Civ XXXVI in 2100 will be able to make the portuguese favored gov. democracy

I made the Nao a Caravel with one more movement point. caravels can cross oceans anyway. 5 movement seems exaggerated to me, and we decided (in part1 I think) not to give 2 extra bonuses without severe reason.

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
*cough*Salazar*cough*

Salazar wasn't a despot, he was a fascist. It's different!
Besides, Salazar was still the Minister of Finances in the last 2 years of the first Republic (wich was pretty democratic, trust me). Then the military started a revolution, wich made them put who they wanted in government. And Salazar was chosen the leader of the "Council".

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
I'm thinking about making Communism the shunned government, but I'm not really sure, AFAIK the portuguese democratic tradition doesn't trace very far back

The Portuguese Democracy started back in 1974. And the people didn't want communists to rule the country, but there was still a considerable number who suported the communists. Despotism is better chosen.

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
I made the Nao a Caravel with one more movement point. caravels can cross oceans anyway. 5 movement seems exaggerated to me, and we decided (in part1 I think) not to give 2 extra bonuses without severe reason.

I don't agree.

[Bad Ax]

Celts: While I'm not going to deny that the chariot was important to the Celtic culture, you can make the argument that chariots aren't really *specific* to their culture. The unique units aren't just about importance--they're also supposed to be something that comes to mind automatically when you think about the culture under consideration. After all, virtually everyone in the Mediterranean and Europe used chariots. So what you should ask yourself is what sort of warrior leaps to mind when the average person (not necessarily a trained historian) thinks of a particular culture. Hence, France-Musketeers, Japan-Samurai, and even the infamous Iroquois-Mounted Warrior (if you're sufficiently idiotic to confuse the Iroquois with the Sioux). When I (not a trained historian) think of Celts, Scottish Highlanders jump to mind. If calling them Woad Warriors makes the Irish feel better, well all right then. Chariots just don't seem unique enough or sufficiently identical with Celtic culture to justify making them a UU. So that's my case for Highlanders (or Woad Warriors... whatever) at 3/2/2 replacing swordsmen, requires iron.

Dutch: Have you considered perhaps adding Capetown, Pietermaritzburg, and Pretoria to this list? The Boers were at least nominally Dutch.

That's all I've got...

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Zealot
Salazar wasn't a despot, he was a fascist. It's different!

And which of civ3 governments does represent fascism better?

The Portuguese Democracy started back in 1974. And the people didn't want communists to rule the country, but there was still a considerable number who suported the communists.

I don't know much about modern portuguese history but that'smore or less what I think too.

Despotism is better chosen.

Regarding the short democratic history I have to disagree. Shunning Despotism should be reserved to few civs. Of the original civs Despotism is shunned by Greece (long democratic tradition), Babylon (No clue why, I see no reason), India (because India is Mahatma Gandhi ) and England (long democratic tradition)

I don't agree.

Stepping down is not one of your strengths, is it?


edit: typo

[Wernazuma III]

Bad Ax: I agree with you about the uniqueness-feeling, so Woad Warrior still is a good possible choice (although in this case the "feeling" will be reserved to native english-speakers, I've never heard the term before. Nevertheless I let it open yet, maybe some people don't agree (I don't want to act like a fascist... err... despot )

Dutch: Have you considered perhaps adding Capetown, Pietermaritzburg, and Pretoria to this list? The Boers were at least nominally Dutch.

Good idea, I've added colonial cities for the dutch already, so why not.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III

Bad Ax: I agree with you about the uniqueness-feeling, so Woad Warrior still is a good possible choice (although in this case the "feeling" will be reserved to native english-speakers, I've never heard the term before. Nevertheless I let it open yet, maybe some people don't agree (I don't want to act like a fascist... err... despot )

Except, except....consider the received general impression of Boudicca, strengthened in people's consciousness by the statue group on the north bank of the Victorian Embankment by the Houses of Parliament; it features in tourist literature, on guides issued by the local council, and reflects what is known and written about by contemporaries of the Celts. Now consider the cheesey neologism 'woad warrior'- frankly, it brings to mind Mel Gibson in Mad Max, with a lisp!
People also talk about the Spanish U.U. being the conquistador- its ahistorical, anachronistic and offensive to many of the Spanish/Hispanic/Native American element on the board- I mean, seriously, it's like having the Crusader as the early U.U. of the Western European states, busily slaughtering Jewish communities, breaking treaties, and generally being an uncouth rancid boor in the Middle East.
Now as regards the Scottish Highlander- you're missing the point. We're talking about a Celtic U.U.- by the time the fighting unit 'The Highlander' came to prominence, Scotland was no longer Celtic, but rather a mixture of Norse/English/French and Scots elements- the highlander I would assert, is associated with the Jacobite Rebellions, Waterloo and various other military engagements of the British Empire.
I don't believe that the Expansion Civs should reflect the inaccuracy of earlier Civs, and from the comments of some of the Spanish and South American (and Dutch) posters, I think I'm not alone in this. I mean, honestly, if the Iroquois become Plains Indians, then why not make the Japanese U.U. a Mongol horseman, and the Roman an elephant mounted archer?

[Mokael]

Hmm, I will probably will get stoned for this, but when I think of Celts I think of Druids and Green Beer. Since Beer cannot be a unit, I would go with a Druid - an upgraded version of a warrior, something like 2/1/2, or 2/2/1, or whatever. But Chariots ... only Russians didn't use them (probably cause we're too lazy to)

As for Hebrew UU - I would definately go with Maccabee, and I would definately make it replace swordsman, with 3/3/1, or 3/2/2.


just thought I throw in my 2 cents ...

[Wernazuma III]

I see your point about the Woad Warrior. Right now I'm surfing through celtic warfare sites to get a more valuable opinion. As I've said: Never heard the term before.

Originally posted by molly bloom
People also talk about the Spanish U.U. being the conquistador- its ahistorical, anachronistic and offensive to many of the Spanish/Hispanic/Native American element on the board- I mean, seriously, it's like having the Crusader as the early U.U. of the Western European states, busily slaughtering Jewish communities, breaking treaties, and generally being an uncouth rancid boor in the Middle East.

I actually wouldn't have minded the Crusader being a UU, i.e. for the french...
What they have done in history is not directly reflected in Civ3. I mean who thinks of the Cossacks as "happily pillaging tartar villages" or who minds aztec warriors "joyfully bringing back thousands of captives for sacrifice"...

Anyway, I'm not willing to get blamed not to listen to others, I'll start a poll on this rightaway

[molly bloom]

The Celts go into battle:

'On another occasion the Romans experienced a new form of noisy warfare: 'for standing up in chariots and wagons, the armed enemies came at them with the great noise of hooves and wheels so that the unfamiliar din terrified the horses of the Romans.' '

https://www.ealaghol.demon.co.uk/celtenc/celt_c3.htm

Boudicca addresses her army:

'Boudicca, in a [chariot], with her two daughters before her, drove through the ranks. She harangued the different nations in their turn: "This," she said, "is not the first time that the Britons have been led to battle by a woman. But now she did not come to boast the pride of a long line of ancestry, nor even to recover her kingdom and the plundered wealth of her family. She took the field, like the meanest among them, to assert the cause of public liberty, and to seek revenge for her body seamed with ignominious stripes, and her two daughters infamously ravished. '

from Tacitus

In Celtic Irish legend and history:

'The legends-especially the Ulster Cycle, the Táin Bó Cúailgne-celebrate the heroes of a society dominated by the túath (tribe), each with its rà (king), druids and cuire (priestly cast). Chariot warfare, beheading, feasting and cattleraiding were the everyday exploits which occupied the heroes.'

https://www.tairn-gire.net/celtswar.html

Diodorus Siculus and Julius Caesar:

'Diodorus said that the chariot was drawn by two horses, and could carry a driver and a warrior. In battle the driver controlled the chariot, whilst the warrior would throw javelins at his opponents. The warrior would then dismount and fight on foot while the driver would take the chariot away to a safe distance. At the first sign of difficulties, the driver would dash into the battle, pick up the warrior, and withdraw to safety. Caesar's account is similar, but adds that chariots were used against cavalry with great effect, and only against infantry in short skirmishes. Caesar admired the charioteer's skills, and described warriors running along the chariot pole and standing on the yoke over the horse's shoulders.'

some lovely illustrations too:

https://www.gallica.co.uk/celts/chariot.htm

The Gallic War:

Chariots
(Caesar, Gallic War V,1, 1st century BC)
"in chariot fighting the Britons begin by driving all over the field hurling javelins, and generally the terror inspired by the horses and the noise of the wheels are sufficient to throw their opponent's ranks into disorder. Then, after making their way between the squadrons of their own cavalry, they jump down from the chariots and engage on foot. In the meantime their charioteers retire a short distance from the battle and place the chariots in such a position that their masters, if hard pressed by numbers, have an easy means of retreat to their own lines. Thus they combine the mobility of cavalry with the staying- power of infantry; and by daily training and practice they attain such proficiency that even on a steep incline they are able to control the horses at full gallop, and to check and turn them in a moment. They can run along the chariot pole, stand on the yoke, and get back into the chariot as quick as lightning ."

https://www.gallica.co.uk/celts/warriors.htm

[Natan]

More Hebrew/Israeli city names, at Eli's request:

Gilo
Lachish
Ramla
Lod
Efrat
Beit Shemesh
Shomron
Dimona
Bnei Brak

[Solomyr]

Wernazuma III couple of things...

For the Hebrews...

-Moses should be one of the great leaders

-I suggest Golda Meir instead of just Meir

-Juda Maccabaeus should be Judah Maccabbee

-Macabee is Maccabee

-the name of the nation should be Judah (not from the above leader, but one of the 12 tribes). After Solomon's time as king, the kingdom split into two, Israel in the north, and Judah in the south. Both were destoryed, but Israel first by ~140 years. the problem is that we have the leader as King David, when the nation was one. But we (should) have the UU be the Maccabee, which came roughly 1000 years later. After the Maccabees won they named the liberatied nation Judah.

and if you could, please show anymore changes on the first page. thanks.

(facts taken from "Jews, God, & History")

[NotLikeTea]

I have concern for the poor dutch UU.

While a good merchent ship is certainly fitting the civ, recall that a golden age doesn't start untill a UU wins a battle.

With such poor attack stats (suited to the current unit), the dutch will have a hard time ever getting their golden age.

I'm also a little iffy on the shunned government. The communist party has a long history in dutch politics, and frequently get memebers elected.

[Wernazuma III]

Not Like Tea: I agree with you that the dutch UU seems a bit weak. But they should be able to get to the golden age, after all the defence is still at 3. Yet I want to evade adding two bonuses beforehand, without testing the pack.

Solomyr: I'm very busy today, I'll comment your post tomorrow.

[Solomyr]

Wernazuma III...

not to worry, i should be soending more time studying, but the lure of civ3 and apolyton commands my attention , more than it seems many other people on these threads. but i am remembering how to be paticent. good luck with whatever commands your time.

Solomyr