Stop the America-bashing!

[AJ Corp. The FAIR]

Crazy, you're rocking on.

You're tone is sometimes rather harsh, but damn me, you're telling some stuff worth mentioning.

You're definitely not that CRAZY at all.

The religion of capitalism surely rules in America and too many countries around. Capitalism should be a servant to peoples, peoples shouldn't be servants to an economical system.

Nasdaq has crashed, Enron has filed for bankrupcy.

Enron and Bush are linked.

The system of capitalism ought to be socialized.

For the benefits of more and not for some.

AJ

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Sagacious Dolphin :
I don't think the US and Britain are like Asterix and Obelix, because Asterix decides and Obelix follows. From my arrogant French point of view, the UK follows blindly what Washington decides, esp. since Blair is in charge. Not that all the Brits agree. But the Brits followed by bombing Irak since 98 as well, by joyfully bombing Kosovo, by bombing Afghanistan. At the diplomatic level, I truly consider UK as the 51st State of the US, except it has no power in the American decision
(Ahhhhh, a bit of UK-bashing... This thread is much better now )

Yeah theres no way to bash the French,

You do know why there's so many trees along the Champs Elysee dont you?

[siredgar]

Arrian, when I relieve myself and look down there, it does look like pure gold.

Anyhow, switching to UK-bashing is fine with me.

On another note, it seems the Canadians are getting back at us by letting all those terrorists just flow into the U.S. Thanks a lot Canada and your overly liberal immigration policies (which by the way appear to be idiotic and not make any sense at all to me).

As Elrond said, "Our list of allies grows thin..."

Oh well.

=)

[CRAZY]

On another note, it seems the Canadians are getting back at us by letting all those terrorists just flow into the U.S. Thanks a lot Canada and your overly liberal immigration policies (which by the way appear to be idiotic and not make any sense at all to me).

how many of those terrorists came from Canada and how many came from right inside the US? They all learned to fly right there! Maybe we should adopt policies like you guys have, then we can all have the world hating us!! Talk sense here.

If the US government treated everyone else around the world with a little more respect and a little less arrogence you wouldn't have your little terroist problem in the first place. Don't try to blame others for a problem you created yourself! Be thankful that Canada and other allies help you at all.

and yes your list of allies does grow thin! WHo do you have to thank for that?

Pathetic!

[CRAZY]

chitity check this link out for some great info on american foreign policy!
rabble

[Whoha]

you linked a post in another forum as evidence?

Now for some dispelling
"The results of US foreign policy has been one of genocide and disaster for billions of people all over the world. The US's foreign policy includes undermining, overthrowing of democracies and supporting dictators amounts to tens of millions of people dying unnecessarily every year for US "vital interests".

Billions... really.

"Since the end of the Second World War, the US has bombed more than 40 nations and issued 19 threats of nuclear annihilation. It's CIA budget in the early 90s was some $29 billion which is used to overthrow, subvert and sabotage all nations which do not conform to US economic demands (not democracy or freedom). "

I remember the short range missile deal where the Soviets could have eliminated the europeans in 7 minutes. They *****ed at us for countering these missiles with missiles of our own REQUIRED OF US BY THE NATO TREATY. Its also important to realize that the 19 countries he talks about, since he doesnt give a link, or provide any numbers on, are countries which have weapons pointed at us. And you Crazy, those commies dont have the most accurate bombs.


Hey AJ, hows about some evidence tying bush to enron. Communism has been proven to not work, and while our system has its criminals, that limit isnt 100% criminal as some others have been.

Crazy if we desired the complete annihilation of our enemies dont you think we would stop shipping them food? The commies can not feed themselves, we have to basically give them food or alot of people starve. The arabs live in a desert. And while some like Iraq Live on the MOST FERTILE GROWING LAND ON EARTH, others who live in the empty quarter, aren't so lucky.

[AJ Corp. The FAIR]

Don't you think that the President of the USA is at least clever and powerful enough to get rid of proves/links to the Enron debacle?

I neither wasn't referring to communism. But the system/doctrine of capitalism (in its present form definitely pushed and promoted all around by many American/European multinationals, to make their companies richer and richer and to increase the worldwide gap between rich and poor.

The antiglobalism debate you know.

The system of capitalism as we know it has become outdated.
(look at so many American companies that have frauded; SEC is only now investigating, but the 'little' people already have lost most of their savings due to the Nasdaq crash to current levels of 1680 points!)

Deal with that or watch your power (and allies) flood away.

Crazy is right in this: the fact that America is 'hated' by so many countries around (especially muslims) has its reasons (inconsequent foreign politics, only acting for their own capitalistic intrests).
America indeed has behaved and still behaves too arrogant.
We Europeans remember, you know. We also try to listen better to the needs of all peoples (eg Palestinians), not just the few happy ones (like Us favoring Israel no matter what --> how'd you expect us to 'judge' you?).

Deal with your allies respectfully.
America will come to need our help. America won't maintain their lead position forever you know.

Attitude towards the US is changing all around the world --> becoming more and more critical.
I still like the USA, but I'm very sorry to confess: some (and that's already too many) Europeans said 'It's terrible, but they've had it coming' after the WTC attacks. (America has reacted good IMO, but they should learn from the growing anger all around !!!)
Mind you: what happened to you is inexcusable and I and our (European) governments are with you!

AJ

[CRAZY]

Whoha... sure if you want to use that as evidence then go ahead there is alot more where that came from!! But serious most people in the US honestly have no clue what else there is out there, they know no other way. Thier whole lives they have heard that thier system is the best and have nothing to compare it to. How many people in the US really know what goes on outside of thier country besides what CNN tells them? I would say definitly not the majority.

I am not trying to cut down the US public as much as the government or the ones who defend the US government. I live very close to the USA (5 minutes from the bridge to USA) and actually played summer hockey on US teams for most of my childhood I have many long time friends there. But the thing is all of them admit they have no clue what is really going on, they admit their ignorance. Instead of the few on this thread that will go to the grave defending thier government practices!

That is what gets me. Don't be afraid to admit your mistakes and your wrong doings it will only help you in the long run! Don't have knowledge of the way your government works yet wonder in awe at why people around the world have disdain for your country! For every action there is a reaction remember that!

military spending

check that out.

Also I have a question for all you americans... what is the government of a countries responsiblity as a government? The best interest of its citizens? Humanity?

When dealing with the first well the USA does rather well I would have to give it a B. When dealing with the second well I would have to give it a F. If you take a good look anything that the US has done for humanity, it has came from looking out for themselves. I also ask where does manipulation play into this? In order to get world support to look after priority 1 the US says they are doing it for all of humanity.. is this true or is this manipulation? All this lying and manipualtion is again just a form of oppressin. Getting the rest of the world doing what the US wants for its own interests. You see? A country that says they will die defending freedom for all of humanity is really the ones that are opressing the masses. kinda backward aye! but believe, believe bellive!!!

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by AJ Corp. The FAIR
Don't you think that the President of the USA is at least clever and powerful enough to get rid of proves/links to the Enron debacle?

In a word, NO. His political opponents are quite capable of finding links if they exist. There are none, its a red herring.

I neither wasn't referring to communism. But the system/doctrine of capitalism (in its present form definitely pushed and promoted all around by many American/European multinationals, to make their companies richer and richer and to increase the worldwide gap between rich and poor.

Yes the global conspiracy of capitalists to keep down the "workers".

The system of capitalism as we know it has become outdated. (look at so many American companies that have frauded; SEC is only now investigating, but the 'little' people already have lost most of their savings due to the Nasdaq crash to current levels of 1680 points!)

So what do you suggest?

Deal with that or watch your power (and allies) flood away.

Its pretty clear that America has one or two allies. The remainder are just pretenders anyway.

Crazy is right in this: the fact that America is 'hated' by so many countries around (especially muslims) has its reasons (inconsequent foreign politics, only acting for their own capitalistic intrests).
America indeed has behaved and still behaves too arrogant.
We Europeans remember, you know. We also try to listen better to the needs of all peoples (eg Palestinians), not just the few happy ones (like Us favoring Israel no matter what --> how'd you expect us to 'judge' you?).

I agree that America would benefit from a coherent foreign policy. It still wouldnt stop the anti-america propoganda that spews from the mouths of dictators of third world backwaters though.

Europeans said 'It's terrible, but they've had it coming' after the WTC attacks.

Not around me they havent.

[CRAZY]

Spence Spence Spence. Capitalism itself is built on the theory of inequality! But I will give you that yes as of now its seems the best alternative. But what the US is promoting is less and less government intervention in the economy. Let the corporations do as they please. Don't have the elected bueracrats have any say over what happens to the citizens. This is why we now have business leaders as leaders of countries. For the self interests of themselves.

God forbid a government interfers with corporate profits and spread the wealth to people who need it more. Bush would be taking money out of his own pocket! Therefore run for president change the rules and pocket more money for himself. You think this is not by design? Do you see who makes contributions to his party? do you see the laws that he passes? Can you see the correlation?

ch11 of Nafta.. Canada wanted it changed to give government power over corporations. As of now corporations have the power to do as they want and if the government of any country inhibits profits for any reason be it health or environment the company can sue. And they do. Canada tried to change this. Bush got very upset! This would affect him personally. It would also affect his party donations.

Please address this spence. Please address the manipulation of the world and then explain why americans are so dumb founded at why american bashing occours! All my posts are laced with facts facts and more facts that you have not addressed. I am open but you give me nothing to change my mind about. Stop defending a country who will let a dictatorship reign in countries who serve a purpose for the US but then will publically declare they will fight for the freedom of the world when they stand in the way of US interests.

Please Spence or anyone else for that matter show me the light!

[Arrian]

I am not saying all the US government does is for themselves and friends but a large porition of it is.

Surely not? I'm shocked. Really. Show me a country in the history of mankind that the above statement does NOT apply to.

That being said, again, I agree that our government often takes it too far. Bush is indeed a unilateralist. I think US foreign policy has been screwed up for decades, but was particularly bad under Clinton (Don't look at the SCANDAL, look at the pretty cruise missles!!). Part of the reason many Americans are ok with a unilateral approach is the aforementioned lack of reliable allies. When all we hear from the rest of the world is negative, it helps to create and perpetuate a "go it alone" mentality. As you have pointed out, the negativity often has roots in our government's policies. So it's a cycle. Lovely, huh?

Also I have a question for all you americans... what is the government of a countries responsiblity as a government? The best interest of its citizens? Humanity?

When dealing with the first well the USA does rather well I would have to give it a B. When dealing with the second well I would have to give it a F.

Hmm. I would say the the first and foremost duty is the best interests of its citizens. This requires a balance of domestic and foreign policy (which often conflict, like in the case of the idiotic steel tarriffs). Of course, if we treat the rest of humanity like dirt (as you allege we do), it impacts the well being of our citizens (this is the classic "you had it coming on 9/11" argument). If, however, you want a government that cares for humanity first... you need a world government - not various nations.

A nitpick: I don't agree that our government claiming we're doing something for the good of humanity when it's mostly good for us is a form of "oppression." No. It's a form of bull****. No more, no less. You guys don't fall for it anyway - it's mostly for domestic politics.

While I agree that bad foreign policy is the major component in the dislike/hatred of the US globally, I cannot shake the feeling that there is more to it. Like envy. It adds an extra edge to the criticism - it's what makes it nasty, I think. I think I've said this before, but it's probably buried pages back, so I'll say it again: it is natural to distrust the rich and powerful. It's also natural to be harsher on them when they are wrong. The spotlight is on us, in other words. Your posts illustrate this, Crazy. Your anger at the US is, in part, due to the unique position my country has in the world and it's failure to use that position to humanity's collective benifit. I'd be willing to bet that you don't give a damn about all the pisspot dictators around the world that are directly responsible for the suffering of millions (if not billions) of people - because that's what you EXPECT of them. Further, I'd be willing to bet that you blame the suffering of those people on the US, either because we don't remove the dictator, or are trying to remove them in a manner which you don't like, or because of a certain trade law, or... or... or...

And so, while I continue to hope for clear, principled foreign policy (no, I'm not holding my breath), I'm not gonna bother hoping for an end to the America bashing. No matter what we do, you (Crazy, et al.) will find fault. Heh, it would be amusing to see a sudden transformation of the world wherein either Canada or any given European country was suddenly the Superpower - just to watch them screw up just as badly as we do.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Stop defending a country who will let a dictatorship reign in countries who serve a purpose for the US but then will publically declare they will fight for the freedom of the world when they stand in the way of US interests.

It's all about semantics, I suppose. Why not say "Stop defending a government that will allow a dictatorship to reign...." Small change in words, big change in meaning. If you attack America, as opposed to the US government, you attack us. And you expect us not to defend ourselves?

Incidentally, about "allowing dictatorships to reign" what would you have us do, exactly? Invade every country in the world that isn't democratic? Get real. If we started doing that, you'd be all over us for violating other country's sovereignty. Let's say the US attacked Zimbabwe and removed Mugabe. Civilians would die, and you would blame their deaths on us. Democracy, incidentally, is something I believe must come from within a nation, not be imposed from the outside.

[siredgar]

Originally posted by CRAZY


how many of those terrorists came from Canada and how many came from right inside the US? They all learned to fly right there! Maybe we should adopt policies like you guys have, then we can all have the world hating us!! Talk sense here.

If the US government treated everyone else around the world with a little more respect and a little less arrogence you wouldn't have your little terroist problem in the first place. Don't try to blame others for a problem you created yourself! Be thankful that Canada and other allies help you at all.

and yes your list of allies does grow thin! WHo do you have to thank for that?

Pathetic!

I wasn't talking about those terrorists. I was talking about all of the other ones, such as that guy who tried to drive down from Canada to blow up LAX on New Year's Eve 2000. There was a report about Canada being used a springboard for terrorism in the U.S. on 60 Minutes this past Sunday. Don't you get 60 Minutes over there or do you just watch Kids in the Hall all day?

Anyhow, if you don't help us now then we won't help you later. I don't care what people say, it's going to take 100 years before anyone challenges U.S. supremacy. China will probably collapse just like Russia before it becomes a threat, Europe is declining, and Japan has become the Sick Man of Asia. Russia can't even feed itself! You better help us or we'll just send more acid rain your way.

[CRAZY]

Surely not? I'm shocked. Really. Show me a country in the history of mankind that the above statement does NOT apply to.

refering to the US acting in the interest of only the US. I would have to say I agree with you to a point. no other country in the history of mankind has done it on the scale that the US is doing it on tho and then turning around and lying about it! They tell the world and many believe it that they do it out of hte goodness of thier hearts for all of humanity. Please do you appreciate being lied to? Being told half truths? Or sometimes just having the truth hidden from you completly? The US does this repeatedly like no other in history. This is largley thanks to teh media, but none the less it still applies.

Incidentally, about "allowing dictatorships to reign" what would you have us do, exactly? Invade every country in the world that isn't democratic? Get real. If we started doing that, you'd be all over us for violating other country's sovereignty.

Then don't lie to the world and tell them this is the reason that you are waging war when it is a flat out lie! I would not expect you to invade every country, and you are right that it would be unrealistic.

Part of the reason many Americans are ok with a unilateral approach is the aforementioned lack of reliable allies. When all we hear from the rest of the world is negative, it helps to create and perpetuate a "go it alone" mentality.

Must you always fight? This seems to have gotten you into the problem in the first place. You dont' understand this? This is a hard concept to comprahend? As you said its your foreign policy which is deeply responsible for this. The reason for your foreign policy--- corporations and profit! Again not very obvious so the avg Joe does not see this correlation, but it DOES exsist!

A nitpick: I don't agree that our government claiming we're doing something for the good of humanity when it's mostly good for us is a form of "oppression." No. It's a form of bull****. No more, no less. You guys don't fall for it anyway - it's mostly for domestic politics.

Oppression: The act of oppressing; arbitrary and cruel exercise of power: “There can be no really pervasive system of oppression... without the consent of the oppressed” (Florynce R. Kennedy).

That which oppresses; a hardship or injustice; cruelty; severity; tyranny

Now you see the meaning of oppression. Misleading someone to do what they would normally not do on thier own through controlled information, half truths and information not given at all. This is making the american public consent and feel that what the US government is doing is okay. This is different from communism in only that it is more sneakier. It gives you teh falise that you are not being lied to and that you know what is going on. In the end the general population feels better about themselves!
Not to mention the sanctions the US government imposes on other countries that causes unnessary hardships. not to mention the bending of rules which = injustice in order to achieve US interests but whatever. I suppose the dictionary is wrong and this is not the meaning of oppression.

Again pathetic!

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Spiffor
(Ahhhhh, a bit of UK-bashing... This thread is much better now )

Usually that practice is left to the English. Self-denigration is our number one past-time.