Stop the America-bashing!

[Denday]

Re: Stop the America-bashing!

America-- 300 years
England-- 1,500 years
France-- 2,000 years
China-- 5,000 years
Egypt-- 6,000 years

Nevertheless, in my opinion, for Europeans to say that America does not belong in Civ III is truly "arrogant". [/QUOTE]

I my oppion you are the one, being arrogant. America no way desrves to be put in civ 3
It is a colony not even 300 years old that is nothing.
1,500 years is long enough but 300 is not.

there were people in the UK more than 1,500 yeras ago and there were people in america 300 years ago but the wern't americans they were iroquis honestly because the country wasn't formed is no excuse
AND 300 YEARS IS NO WERE NEAR ENOUGH
YOU NEED OVER A THOUSAND
While your at it why dont we ad australia or NZ lets have fiji
Your comments are greeeat
Come on just because your from america and you beleave your countries better than everyones does not mean it should be there in civ 3 you should be classed as britan.

Ps dont care about speeling

[Ribannah]

Re: STILL TERRIBLY PROUD OF MY COUNTRY!

Originally posted by lorddread
I have never met anyone who works 20 hours a day in the US.

Figures. It's of course a little exaggerated, but not by much.
In comparison, the US has many more people struggling to attain subsistence than any European country. Having both a day- and a night job is no exception if you happen to be non-unionized, and that is without health insurance, too. Many don't make it and end up in the streets, or worse.

McCarthyism went out in the 50's during the hysteria concerning communism.

Even today quite a few people won't even get a visum to visit the US.

As for the patrols along the Mexican boarder, just because we allow millions of legal immegrants into our country each year, we wish to stop illegal immagrants. Nothing wrong with that.

I didn't say it was, it just proves that you don't accept everyone, you only accept the ones you brand 'legal'. You might want to look into how someone can become a legal immigrant in the US.

I am going to say something here that is going to touch off a firestorm but what the hell. The US Constitution is NOT based on the Iriquois one, but on the Masonic Constitution which was created in England, Scotlans and Ireland by their Grand Lodges.

A firestorm is not needed.
The Masonic Constitution of 1717(?) was much inspired by the Iroquois Constitution (initial version around 1460). The way of life of the Iroquois (and especially naturalism) was the talk of the day among Europeans, not just philosophers, in those times. By then Jesuit scribes had put much of the Iroquois way of life, laws etc. into European writing (and had developed an alphabet for the Mohawk language along the way).
In addition, the Founding Fathers were directly advised by Iroquois chiefs, with Canassatego leading the delegation, starting with the topic of forming a confederacy.

Actually US imports outrank our exports year after year.

Exactly.

I don't see foriegn dignataries going to Australia for Cancer treatments. Of for their heart conditions. No they go the Mayo Clinic or Cedar Sinia or Beth Israel.

That has to do with the system, not with the quality. If you're willing and able to pay you can get any treatment you want in the US. People go to eg South Africa for the same reason.
Further, the US specializes in surgery (highest profit!), which is just one field of doctoring.
And dignitaries often go to France where they get special treatment beyond the normal health regulations.
Regarding cancer treatment in particular, the Netherlands are right there at the top, but because of the bureaucratic health system (waiting lists) some people still have to go abroad for treatment (of many conditions).

What treaty did we sign? What magical piece of paper gave up our soveriegnty?

I'll let you ponder on that one a little longer.

Please note that in spite of the above I do think it was correct to include the US in the game. Arrogance is a feature!

[SpencerH]

Re: Re: STILL TERRIBLY PROUD OF MY COUNTRY!

Originally posted by Ribannah

Figures. It's of course a little exaggerated, but not by much.
In comparison, the US has many more people struggling to attain subsistence than any European country. Having both a day- and a night job is no exception if you happen to be non-unionized, and that is without health insurance, too. Many don't make it and end up in the streets, or worse.

There probably are more people below the poverty line in the US than in the Netherlands. The problems of chronically indigent people in western societies are not limited to the USA however. Are you saying that in Amsterdam I wont find people living in the street? I've seen them there too?

Even today quite a few people won't even get a visum to visit the US.

Quite true. Just as there are people who wont get EU visas either.

I didn't say it was, it just proves that you don't accept everyone, you only accept the ones you brand 'legal'. You might want to look into how someone can become a legal immigrant in the US.

The USA does not accept everyone as immigrants but neither does any other country. My experience is that their selection criteria are not much different than Europes.

As for immigrating here, there are some strange rules and at the present time the bureacracy is quite inefficient. But again thats not much different than any other country. I have a friend who waited two years for his visa in a European country. When he was finally called down to get his visa attached to his passport it had already expired. Apparently, everyone laughed.

The Dutch physicians I have known were as good as any. I havent been impressed with socialized medicine (in general) though.

Please note that in spite of the above I do think it was correct to include the US in the game. Arrogance is a feature!

Then we should certainly include the Dutch.

[Whoha]

the editors of the game provided all the tools you need to add civilizations(they didnt have time as it was to fix all the bugs, you wanted them to work on adding civs instead of that?). The maintainers of this site provide many such civilizations. The important thing to remember here is that this is a game, and more then that, its infogrames's and firaxis's game, theirs to do with as they choose. Arguing over the correctness of adding America to the game is pointless.

[Beren]

Just another evidence that America bashing is a just cause:
Lynne Cheney and Joe Lieberman put up a blacklist of autority persons who are considered to have committed treachery. People were judged on what they said and called with name.
This is considered treachery in the report:
"we need to understand the reasons behind the terrifying hatred directed against the U.S. and find ways to act that will not foment more hatred for generations to come."
"It is from the desperate, angry and bereaved that these suicide pilots came."
"America should build bridges and relationships, not simply bombs and walls."

If this is treachery I am definately treacherous, but so are all of you... What vice-president's wife is saying is that these things should not be said. So it's not only true that critic is 'not done' in America, it's also treachery.

Report:

https://www.goacta.org/Reports/defciv.pdf

Reactions:

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1213-05.htm

http://www.dailylobo.com/main.cfm/include/detail/storyid/174730.html

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Beren
Just another evidence that America bashing is a just cause:
Lynne Cheney and Joe Lieberman put up a blacklist of autority persons who are considered to have committed treachery. People were judged on what they said and called with name.
This is considered treachery in the report:
"we need to understand the reasons behind the terrifying hatred directed against the U.S. and find ways to act that will not foment more hatred for generations to come."
"It is from the desperate, angry and bereaved that these suicide pilots came."
"America should build bridges and relationships, not simply bombs and walls."

If this is treachery I am definately treacherous, but so are all of you... What vice-president's wife is saying is that these things should not be said. So it's not only true that critic is 'not done' in America, it's also treachery.

Report:

https://www.goacta.org/Reports/defciv.pdf

Reactions:

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1213-05.htm

http://www.dailylobo.com/main.cfm/in...id/174730.html

Beren

You cant be a traitor to the USA unless you're an american.

Did you read the report? It is not a blackllist of any kind. I could not find a single reference to traitors in it. It is simply a report pointing out tha discrepancy between the opinions of academics versus the "average man" in america with regard to the events of Sep 11 and the war on terrorism. The authors of this publication from ACTA (not Lynne Cheney or Sen. Lieberman) are attempting to bring this to light so that the people of this country can debate it. Surely there's nothing wrong with that?

I suggest you look up Lynne Cheney's stance on freedom of speech. I believe you'll find that she is one of its strongest advocates. She also believes, however, that others have the right to criticize and take appropriate actions against such speech. In this country right now its usually the conservatives who defend free speech and the liberals who attack it.

You may have noticed numerous quotations in the report by Brown University faculty. Brown is a university in the state of Rhode island (ivy league) where they recently had what amounts to a book burning. Campus newspapers that included a contradictory opinion with respect to reparations to african-americans for slavery were gathered up and burnt by the "liberal intelligencia".

[Ribannah]

Re: Re: Re: STILL TERRIBLY PROUD OF MY COUNTRY!

Originally posted by SpencerH
...

Glad to conclude that you're not one of those who claim that the US are number one in everything.
No country is perfect (the number of the homeless in the Netherlands is rapidly increasing indeed, with the deterioration of the social system).
Stay proud, there is still plenty to be proud of for the both of us!

[Dauphin]

Bush Doctrine

Originally posted by Beren
Just another evidence that America bashing is a just cause:
Lynne Cheney and Joe Lieberman put up a blacklist of autority persons who are considered to have committed treachery. People were judged on what they said and called with name.
This is considered treachery in the report:
"we need to understand the reasons behind the terrifying hatred directed against the U.S. and find ways to act that will not foment more hatred for generations to come."
"It is from the desperate, angry and bereaved that these suicide pilots came."
"America should build bridges and relationships, not simply bombs and walls."

If this is treachery I am definately treacherous, but so are all of you... What vice-president's wife is saying is that these things should not be said. So it's not only true that critic is 'not done' in America, it's also treachery.

Report:

https://www.goacta.org/Reports/defciv.pdf

Reactions:

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1213-05.htm

http://www.dailylobo.com/main.cfm/in...id/174730.html

If you are not with us you are against us!
If you are not proud to be American you are against us!
If you think Bush looks like a chimp you are against us!

[lorddread]

Please get your facts straight!

Originally posted by Beren
Just another evidence that America bashing is a just cause:
Lynne Cheney and Joe Lieberman put up a blacklist of autority persons who are considered to have committed treachery. People were judged on what they said and called with name.
This is considered treachery in the report:
"we need to understand the reasons behind the terrifying hatred directed against the U.S. and find ways to act that will not foment more hatred for generations to come."
"It is from the desperate, angry and bereaved that these suicide pilots came."
"America should build bridges and relationships, not simply bombs and walls."

If this is treachery I am definately treacherous, but so are all of you... What vice-president's wife is saying is that these things should not be said. So it's not only true that critic is 'not done' in America, it's also treachery.

Report:

https://www.goacta.org/Reports/defciv.pdf

Reactions:

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1213-05.htm

http://www.dailylobo.com/main.cfm/in...id/174730.html

IF you had taken the time to read the report, instead of scanning it and then criticizeing our leaders, you would have posted the rediculous post above!

The report shows what most Americans already know. That the United States college and University system are run by socialists. Not just Liberal Democrats, but Ultra Leftists.

Lynne Chene did not write the report as any sort of black list. I could not image the firestorm that would sweep the college campus's if such a list was created. The lawsuits would pile up higher the the WTC's.

If you are going to take part in discussions within this thread, please get your facts straight. I will of course give you the benifit of the doubt as English is not your first language, that you didn't understand the purpose of the document. If this is so, in the future please have someone explain it to you!

Thank you.

Have a nice day

[Beren]

Re: Please get your facts straight!

Originally posted by lorddread


IF you had taken the time to read the report, instead of scanning it and then criticizeing our leaders, you would have posted the rediculous post above!

The report shows what most Americans already know. That the United States college and University system are run by socialists. Not just Liberal Democrats, but Ultra Leftists.

Lynne Chene did not write the report as any sort of black list. I could not image the firestorm that would sweep the college campus's if such a list was created. The lawsuits would pile up higher the the WTC's.

If you are going to take part in discussions within this thread, please get your facts straight. I will of course give you the benifit of the doubt as English is not your first language, that you didn't understand the purpose of the document. If this is so, in the future please have someone explain it to you!

Thank you.

Have a nice day

If what you are saying is correct, it is referred wrongly somewhere on the internet. So that's not my fault and I have to admit I don't read entire reports, I just read what other people said about it. I am just too lazy to read that many pages.
But nevertheless, it was said on multiple occassion that the 117 remarks in the report were referred to as being treacherious. Of course this web site could have it wrong and just made something up...
(Idea for new signature: Maybe I am wrong, but you are more wrong.)

[lorddread]

Ideals

Beren,

Never get the impression that I look down upon your ideals and beliefs. Young people such as yourself are full of ideals and view the world one way. As you get older, your perception of the world changes. It happens to all of us. Things we believed in as young adults, we find no longer are either important to us, or our views changed.

My view of the world is considerably different from yours. I respect your view, even when I believe it to be wrong.

America and Europe are 2 different nations. (I am thinking EU here). Our goals in the world while parelell (we both want world peace), we are trying to get there by different methods.

In our country, like yours, we are free to say almost anything. Exress our beliefs.

A problem we as a nation are facing now, is that during the 60's and 70's, radicals (hippies) wanted to change the world through revolution. They learned they couldn't do it.

Europe has radical politions (La Pen in France is an example), here in our country radicals cannot get elected because the people won't vote for them, so they take their message elsewhere, our colleges.

For decades they have spread their message in relative obscurity. We knew they were there, but didn't care. They have the right to speak their mind, just as I have the right to ignore them.

After 9-11 their views, because they are so radical, clashed with our society's views. The report documented this. We can point out how wrong they are, but we cannot censor them. Our constituion will not allow that.



The problem with what was reported in the report is that

[Dry]

Re: Ideals

Originally posted by lorddread
Europe has radical politions (La Pen in France is an example), here in our country radicals cannot get elected because the people won't vote for them, so they take their message elsewhere, our colleges.

This is not exactly my perception of it.
I have the feeling that Lepen's political views are far-right in Europe but would be seen as simple right in the US.
I think that Lepen in the US would not be considered as extremist. And this is the reason why you don't 'have' extremists.

OTOH, the few I have read in the report is far-left in the US, but in Europe could be seen as just left. Something between the socialists and the communists, but with a pinch of autoritarism (if what the report says is correct of course), so I would say something like the Greens.

Now, about the report. From what I have read (but I am no english native), my understanding is that it is meant to be a report about a situation, but it appear to be a list of examples with names. A report talks about statistics, and does not include names.
The fact that a 'study' it includes names, has some disgusting far-right smell. It is a technique used by far-right groups.
It is like putting a yellow star on the chest of the people.
To wear a yellow star does not kill you, does it?
It just tells the truth, isn't it?
Transparency, right?

That report has indeed a real strange smell.

[SpencerH]

Re: Re: Ideals

Originally posted by Dry

I have the feeling that Lepen's political views are far-right in Europe but would be seen as simple right in the US.
I think that Lepen in the US would not be considered as extremist. And this is the reason why you don't 'have' extremists.

We do have both left and right-wing extremists in America, but they are usually not successful nationally. Nader was the most recent example of this. There have been similar candidates (to Lepen) in America who developed substantial followings at the local or state levels by appealing to patriotic "right-wing" values. All of them were eventually exposed as the neo-nazis that they are and soundly thrashed on entering the national arena. Based on that, I would say that Lepen would eventually be recognized as an extremist here also.

Based on my own experience though, I would say that the moderate American "right-wing" would be "far right" in Europe and moderate "left-wing" in Europe would be "far-left" here

OTOH, the few I have read in the report is far-left in the US, but in Europe could be seen as just left. Something between the socialists and the communists, but with a pinch of autoritarism (if what the report says is correct of course), so I would say something like the Greens.

I would actually put the academic-left further left than the greens. Some of them are more like "rabid-dog-stalinists".

Now, about the report. From what I have read (but I am no english native), my understanding is that it is meant to be a report about a situation, but it appear to be a list of examples with names. A report talks about statistics, and does not include names.

It is a report about a situation. Its simply that they are reporting the viewpoints of these academics to the american people. Most americans wouldnt guess that these people are teaching these views in American universities. This report simply brings their remarks out into the open.

The fact that a 'study' it includes names, has some disgusting far-right smell. It is a technique used by far-right groups.
It is like putting a yellow star on the chest of the people.
To wear a yellow star does not kill you, does it?
It just tells the truth, isn't it?
Transparency, right?

That report has indeed a real strange smell.

What smell would that be? Either they said these things or they didnt. If some of those academics were misquoted or their comments were taken out of context thats a problem, but one that can be dealt with in the courts. I'll bet that you wont see much, if any, of that though. Instead we'll see the kinds of attacks you have now posted in an attempt to side-step the issue. These academics certainly have the right to say those things but they also have to accept the responsibility for what they say and do. The american people have the right to know what is being said by these academics so that they can decide what to do about it.

This is not a report by the government. That fact alone makes it vastly different from wearing yellow stars. Its a report by a private organization who have as much right to state their opinions as anyone else in America. The endorsements by Lynne Cheney AND Sen. Lieberman should tell you something.

[Dry]

Re: Re: Re: Ideals

Originally posted by SpencerH
It is a report about a situation. ...What smell would that be?

Far-right smell.
One technique used by far-right people is to take a few chosen examples and make a generalisation. They will for example here in Europe, chose one given immigrate family, having many children and living from social care. They will pinpoint this family as parasites. If you argue that this is an isolate case, they will find a few more.
Usually 10 examples are enough to generalise that to 'all immigrates are parasites'.

This report takes some examples and may lead the reader to think that this is a general situation in all US universities.

I would actually put the academic-left further left than the greens. Some of them are more like "rabid-dog-stalinists".

I don't know what are the greens in your country, but some greens by us (Belgium, France and Germany) make me think to those old commies. Nice, sweet speach on paper and as long as they are in the opposition, and rabid-dog-stalinists when they are in charge. They don't know it, but they have the same flaw: they want to make your happiness against your will. This leads to stalinism.
Have you ever had greens in charge?
Ask the Germans about the laws they have 'thanks' to the greens.

[need to be confirmed by some Finn]
I have bee told that some nordic country (Finland?) had their nuke centrals closed, thanks to the greens. But as they need power for their factories, they buy it from the russians.
Great! They closed western technology nuke powers and 'help' Tchernobyl-like ones to survive.
Yeah, since they are in charge, I feel the world is a safier place.
[/need to be confirmed by some Finn]

[Spiffor]

I'm not an ecologist, but the Greens did not make happiness against the will of the people : they were elected to pass laws, which force people to be more respective to the environment, becuase for that matter, only a collective effort would be useful.
For example : the trash-plasticbags in Germany are horrible, and you pay fines if you have tto much non-recyclable garbage for your household. But I sure hope most of these materials are recycled.
People make rule for theselves, so that when everyone makes concessions, the life among others is more harmonious. It's called society. If the German truly hated these environement law, they'd elect someone promising to get rid of them.