Stop the America-bashing!

[Spiffor]

You shouldn't overestimate the power of the lobbies. Although it is clear to me that lobbies are inherently evil, they do not represent a plot of some CEOs manipulating the puppet Bush. They have some power, at the expense of the legitimate, elected institutions. They participate in the decisions, and demand some policy to be done in their interest rather than the whole country(s interest. They often get satisfaction, but not always : lobbies are one of the numerous pressures a President has to take into account (froeign country, objective situation of the economy, obeying the law and the constitution etc.). Each of these pressures takes bits of power from politics, and makes the power very dissolved in a leading class. There is no small secret plot giving orders and being always obeyed. There are many people giving orders and being sometimes obeyed.

[Whoha]

"The US government is run by corporations in the interest of corporations. The elections are paid for by corporations. Look at the bush administration, how many corporations are represented? These are the people who make US policies.
This is not something that I have thought up, this was first coined by a US president named Isenhower(sp).
The US government maybe an elected entity but by no means represent the US public. As I said the interests of corporations are first and foremost in the bush admistration. If pleasing a few voters here and there will keep him in power longer then so be it he will do what he has to do, but not a bit more. The thing that gets me is the US publics willingness to go along with this. Why? Look at military spending.. "

WEEEEEEEEEE!

"Can you really justify this? the missle defence plan? In case you haven't realized the threat is not the Soviets anymore but terriosts. This is not something missle defence will have a deterence on. "

China, rogue terrorist states,etc. Saddam did launch missiles at Israel in 91.

"But what it will have an effect on is the corporations that cator to the pentagon and the pockets of those who in fact sit on boards and commities within the US government itself!! It is plain and obvious for anyone to see this corruption if they look through the constant barrage of media that the bush administration spews at the public. How many of the US citizens on this board sound like regerjataed cnn comercials?"

Whats good for business is good for america, and vice versa. Can you post some cnn commercials? i doubt it


BUt the majority of the US public in its self interest and ignorance of facts will continue to chant USA no matter what the truth. Its a pity, nothing lasts forever.

[Beren]

Originally posted by SpencerH
Gotta have some specifics

Well, America increased the numbers of North Vietnamese infiltrants in the South Vietnam to maintain international support for the war.

[SpencerH]

Beren,

I'm not sure what war in Vietnam you're thinking of, but there was no international support for the Vietnam war that I remember.

The North Vietnamese infiltrated South Vietnam virtually at will, they needed no help from America.

[Beren]

Originally posted by SpencerH
Beren,

I'm not sure what war in Vietnam you're thinking of, but there was no international support for the Vietnam war that I remember.

The North Vietnamese infiltrated South Vietnam virtually at will, they needed no help from America.

There was international critisism and that didn't really help America.
And I am not saying there were no infiltrants, I am just saying America exaggerated the ammount of infiltrants.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Beren

There was international critisism and that didn't really help America.

Exactly, so whether they did or didnt exaggerate the number of North Vietnamese in South Vietnam doesn't really matter. They may have attempted to manipulate the opinions of other nations in this way, but it didnt work.

[Beren]

Yes!! My point is that America does that kind of s h i t.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Beren
Yes!! My point is that America does that kind of s h i t.

As does every other country!

[CRAZY]

no spence not like the US!! The US medals in others affairs way more then any other. And for doing so somtimes pay the price and suffer the america bashing that you have seen in this thread.

Has it been that hard to figer out? This is what everyone on this thread oposed to the US has been trying to say, but yet you blind american patroits keep marching on, just like blind lemmings!

[Arrian]

Point taken Crazy, about meddling in others affairs. That always causes problems. I also agree that our government is overly preachy, and paints a picture where America is perfect, and this inevitably results in us falling short of that ideal.

However, I repectfully submit that if we didn't "meddle" at all, we would be lambasted for isolationism: "Look, America is shirking its responsibility! As a Superpower, America should be active in the world! But no, they curl up in a shell! Damn selfish Americans - they only care about themselves!" What's the standard European criticism of US involvement in WWI/WWII? - "You guys came in late. We were fighting for years before you showed up." That's isolationism for ya. Only after WWII was the U.S. an interventionist power.

But when we do "meddle" we apparently can't do ANYTHING right. No matter what we try to do, it seems we're wrong. I'm not saying the United States hasn't made big mistakes, and been responsible for terrible things, because it has and is. Personally, I tend toward isolationism. It's easier, frankly.

But explain this: every European or UN official I have heard or seen quoted has said that the USA be involved and work to bring peace to Israel/Palestine (I use this as an example, it's not the only one). WHAT? On the one hand, people demand that we get involved. Meanwhile, the USA is accused of heavy pro-Israel bias (fair enough, we are allied to Israel and we give them heaps of money), and therefore supposedly cannot be a fair broker (I happen to agree, and wish this was handled via the UN somehow). So here is the message I'm getting:

We want you involved, because you're the only one with the influence necessary to bring peace, but you can't possibly bring peace because you're biased. That, my friends, is what I call a no-win scenario. What if an American-backed peace plan finally succeeds in bringing the conflict to an end? Do you think anyone will stand and cheer? Hell, no. All we will hear is "America should have done this, that or the other thing years ago and it all would have been peachy!"

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I personally would make a number of changes to U.S. foreign policy if I could. But I doubt that even then the America bashing would stop, or even drop off. I suppose I'm a pessimist on that one.

-Arrian

[Spiffor]

Arrian, I like your analysis, it seems very true to me.

I'd like to see the US more isolationistic, just to know if it's better or worse (of course, I'm expecting this was better). That's why I wanted Bush to be elected, even if I'm left winged. Guess I'm pretty bad at guessing the future

[Dauphin]

European Isolationism

America should be more like Europe when it comes to isolationism.

Whine about everyone elses involvement, but don't get involved yourself.

Edit - Found another censored word, despite its innocuous usage. .

[Eddin]

About the Bin-Laden tape... I have several reasons to believe it's a forgery made by CIA (I'm usually against such conspiracy theories, but this is a noteworthy exception)

Anyway, I DO think he did it, the tape is just sh*te

Let me explain why:
1: Bin Laden was hardly visible (it could have been anyone)
2: The tape was of horrible quality (why would a wealthy man tape his speech with such a shabby homecamera?)
3: The tape was actually found (which I think is most odd... why would someone allow it to exist?)
4: Why would ANYONE tape such a discussion? What good does it do?

Anyway not really a point, since I think Bin-Laden is the evildoer anyway.

[Eddin]

Re: The Bush Presidency

Originally posted by lorddread


You Europeans got the wrong impression of the 2000 election. Gore didn't have a landslide in the popular votes. He won the popular vote by a couple of thousand. The popular vote doesn't matter though in our presidential elections. It is the Electoral College which is won by winning 51% of the Electoral Votes> Look at a map of the country the Bush carried. He won almost the entire country. Only certain cities did he loose in. Once again get your facts straight!

He got his facts straight. What (I think) he was trying to say is that the Electoral colledge is a crappy system. And I think it is. Though it usually doesn't matter, in such cases when the PEOPLE (the first word in the compound of DEMOcracy, that which you so fiercely defend) vote the same as the college. But when that doesn't happen, you get something else... I wouldn't call it democracy. In fact, the only reason why you have an electoral colledge is because the 18th century Americans were afraid of the dumb masses...

Finally a moderate European

I consider myself fairly moderate. Though not always

2. So what! You weren't doing anything constructive. Chamberlain tried talking Hitler out of WWII, guess what happened........

Yes, and Rabbin tried to talk his way out of war with the palestinians... Or Kofi Annan... Ethiopia and Eritrea.

Your argument is quite flawed.

Tell that to the 250,000 Bosnians raped and killed. The 120,000 Croates.

I mourn for them. All I'm asking of you Americans is to acknowledge your own mistakes and perhaps even apologise... is that so hard?

[Eddin]

Re: I AM TERRIBLY PROUD OF MY COUNTRY!

Originally posted by lorddread


Sudan replaced the US on the UN Human Rights Commission. A country that still practices slavery, murder of its citizens because of their religion, drug smuggling, torture, money laundering and murder of foriegners. Yeah good choice huh?

No... but neither would the US be... and that is my point. Though I think the international community gave this as more of a wake up call for the US.

Europe is not a US lackey. We can't stand many of the policies of your governments, nor can we understand how as a group you stay together. You are as difficult for us to understand as we are to you.

We are not together... people thinks os, but we are being driven apart... the rise of rightwinged parties shows that. And I must say I am quite pleased with the latest actions... Europe finally showing spine.

Btw, now YOU should get your facts straight. What governments in Europe complaint about is the speed by which it happened, and the denial of the US to take some time to build up a multilateral force. And as the attack didn't hit us (we are selfish too) we weren't too rash. And though the US's rashness payed off... it might have been very bad.

I am sorry you feel ill because I defend what my country feels it must do because others in the world won't. When you get a little older (out of college and into the real world of the job and family) your opinions will change. It is good to be an idealist when you are young. It helps you develop goals you wish to accomplish as an adult. But please don't criticize me because you don't like my country. I do not bash any other country, but I will point out that no country is entirely blameless today.

As will I. All I'm trying to point out is the fact that some things should not be proud of. My mother and father have been to America, adn they feel the same. America scares them. Will go into detail if you want me to.

I am terribly proud of my country and what it stands for. Many nations in Europe beat immagrants, we accept everyone. You have quotas for how many from this country or that, you let in. We do not. People from 83 nationalities worked at the WTC towers. I have neighbors from Azerbijan. Friends at work from Mongolia. I have worked for Russian bosses. Our third largest ethnic group is Latino.

Well congratulations... it's fine you are getting along well... though you will have to admit there are many foreigners who are not allowed inside your borders (latino's perhaps?). I don't know the exact figures, but if you would send me some comparison between US and EU admission of refugees and hatred against them... I'd love to have them.

Our constitution is copied and forms the basis for 19 other countries. Our dollar is the world benchmark for currancy.
We are the worlds largest exporter and importer. Our schools train the best doctors in the world. Engineers come from India, China, Germany, France, Brazil etc, to come to schoold here and then stay here and work (although a lot of Indians are going home to the Asian Silicon Valley).

That does not say anything about the moral qualities of the US, only that you can make a big buck. Plus, the fact that your constitution is the basis for 19 others doesn't make it a good one.

I will admit that many of our policies especially in the 80's and in Central America sucked and were wrong. But just because you don't agree with our policies do not mean they are wrong.

Could you give me the boundary between not agreeing and wrong? That is a very debatable issue, wrongness is only made by the people judging. Not by a treay or charter, as the US has shown time and time again.

Finally, why should our country or any country have to ask another country's permission to exercise its authority and fullfill its duty to its citizens in time of war and need. If the world does not have the will to fight terrorism, does that mean we shouldn't?

Fight whatever you want, that is not my main complaint. As I said before... it's the US's selfserving attitude in world politics. And I will continue to whine until you have admitted you are self serving.

PS: I would like to know what policies you find sickening. The only policy I have heard in this thread so far was our backing out of the Kyoto treay. Which I explained why we did it.

I'm not really into treaties, and I do not claim to know much. But the ABM treaty comes to mind. The Death Penalty and the declaration of Human rights. Will try to find more.

Bring me examples of our flawed policies and I will discuss them with you. BUT get your facts straight first. Too many people here throw out wrong facts and then expect others to refute them!

Not to be rude... but I have rarely seen you backing your facts with websites or Encyclopedias.