Stop the America-bashing!

[Willem]

Originally posted by Serb

Don't you find that public opinion is very dangerous thing, for justice? Remember O.J.Simpson case?

Public opinion had very little to do with the verdict of that case. Simpson was acquitted because the evidence didn't conclusively prove his guilt. In US law, as well as here in Canada, if there is so much as a "reasonable doubt" that the defendant in a case is innocent, then charges are generally dropped. Juries are quite often advised that they have a responsibility to do so. In Simpson's case, all the evidence against him was circumstantial, not concrete.

[Dry]

Originally posted by Serb

Do you know that russian writer Nick Perumov writed about 20 books based on Talkiens characters. It is very cool continue of the story.

No sorry, I don't know him. The only russian words I know are: tovaritch, bistro, glasnosk, perestroika, rasputitsia, katyusha, datcha, dushka and nipu nimei (?). So as long as it is not translated, I will not be able to read his books
Anyhow,
characters are IMO not the most important thing in the story, they are just the 'painting' of the story, not the 'hard core' of it.
The story of that ring of Power, is more a question about 'do Good have the right (or the strength) to use Evil's weapon in order to fight Evil without becoming evil himself.
Kill a killer?
No civil rights for murderers?

[Harovan]

If Yeltsin/Putin would be right slaughtering people in Chechenya, Milosevic would have been right in Kosovo too. It's the same thing, and the UCK was/is also proven to be a terrorist organization.

[Rosacrux]

Russia is slaughtering people in Checnya. The locals want to break from Russian and form their own land, but Russia won't let them. USA-NATO turns the head away and wistles incoherently while this is going on.

Why? Well, Russia is a valuable potential ally and has a large nuclear arsenal.

Israel is excercising ethnic cleansing at it's best, chasing away people from their homes to plant more and more settlements on foreign ground. Not mentioning the "how many palestinian 12 year olds have you killed today David" popular sport among the tank crews. Additionaly, Sharon is wanted by two international courts (Hague-Brussels) for crimes against humanity. USA-NATO turns the head away and wistles incoherently while this is going on.

Why? Well, Israel is USA's ally and the all-powerfull Jewish lobby in USA makes sure that's the way it stays.

Milosevich performs ethnic cleansing in Kossovo. Inside the bounds of his own land (unlike Israel, that is). Yet, NATO invades (ie. bombs the **** out of) Yugoslavia and Milosevich is tried at Hague.

Why? Because Yugoslavia is not a trusted ally of the U.S. of A.

Double standards? You bet!

[Arrian]

Principle vs. Self Interest.

Ah yes, the (in my opinion) very heart of what's wrong with U.S. foreign policy.

Given a choice between the two, the U.S. government (just like, I feel the need to point out, every other country in the world) has chosen and will choose self interest over principle. I happen to believe that, in the long run, principle and self interest are one and the same (we, as in the USA, have some damn good principles that we keep ignoring). The problem is that in the short term, it is usually more expedient to ignore principle.

Which brings us to the decision makers. Who are they? Politicians. What are politicians concerned with? Elections. When do those take place? Every few years (it varies depending on the office). One of the major weaknesses of democracy, as a system of government, is that the process by which leaders are chosen nearly guarantees they will be shortsighted! They think election-to-election, and rarely any farther. Unfortunately, the election system is also the only thing that ensures any bit of accountability to the people (the theory being: be good, or get voted out in a couple of years).

It's frustrating as hell.


A couple of miscellanious things:

"Star Wars" - Oh, yeah, that thing has "PORK BARREL PROJECT" stamped all over it in big, bold print. Money talks....

Israel - I shudder every time I hear people saying what a good friend and ally Israel is to us. Yet, if I criticize Israeli policy, I stand a pretty good chance of being labeled an "anti-semite" which means I'm a racist. I'm not. Israel is nation, with an elected government. I disagree (STRONGLY) with that government's policies. That does not mean I hate the people of that country - far from it. But most American Jews don't see it that way. To them, criticism of Israel = hatred of Jews. That is a mindset born of persecution. It's a siege mentality... you can see it in every statement by an Israeli official... in every action taken by the Israeli government. However, I can understand where it came from. The Arab nations are not innocent either, not to mention groups like Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad.

Yugoslavia - Though I disagreed with Nato's intervention, I am fairly certain that there was no dark, sinister plot to do harm to Serbia. Basically, the large news agencies convinced a large chunk of America (politicians and normal people alike) that Milosevich was murdering innocent Kosovars (which is true, to an extent) and that we had a duty to do something to protect these defenseless innocents. So we did what we always seem to do - we called in the USAF, guns blazing. We didn't think the matter through, and like you guys have pointed out, it wouldn't have been done to an ally or a country with nuclear weapons. Then it turns out that some of those "innocent" Kosovars were members of a violent seperatist group (KLA, right?). What Milosevich was doing was wrong. I just don't think our reaction was the right one. Then again, had we done nothing, we would have been criticized for that instead.

-Arrian

[Willem]

Originally posted by Arrian
I just don't think our reaction was the right one. Then again, had we done nothing, we would have been criticized for that instead.

-Arrian

Yes, the US has found itself in a bit of a pickle in that regard. Do nothing and be condemned for being isloationist, or get involved and have some people claim it's trying to advance it's own agendas at others expense. One of the problems of being such a powerful nation I guess. Frankly, I don't think Bush is the right man to walk that tightrope, the cracks are already beginning to show in his coalition. I don't think he can count on much support if he tries to extend his anti-terror campaign further than Afghanistan. He certainly didn't help his cause any with that "axis of evil" remark.

[jasev]

In my not so humble opoinion, there were two troubles with american intervention in the Balkans:

1) Too late. The war in the former Yugoslavia started about 1990-91. We (including the europeans) should have been there to stop the disaster.

2) Too one-sided. The american intervention gave right to a side, forgetting absolutely about the other side. In the balkans everybody is guilty of a lot of crimes (specially Milosevic, who started them), Concentration camps, racist attacks, common tombs, etc were absolutely normal.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Rosacrux
Russia is slaughtering people in Checnya.

Who told you that? I suppose one of the peaceful, honorable Chechen freedom fighters who put his finger on trigger and blows up building with hundreds of civilian people within or may be his 'brother in arms'- a hijacker who drives a hijacked plane to WTC? I suppose this two type of guys has such point of view.

The locals want to break from Russian and form their own land, but Russia won't let them.

Do you read my previous posts? I've realize that they may be hard to understand because of my poor English but.. Well I'll try to explain it once again especially for you.
They were already free from our rule for the period of 3 years (1996-1999); they were not controlled by Moscow. ABSOLUTELY not controlled, no Russian law, no Russian army no anything russian. It ends up with an establishing of fundamentalist state absolutely equal to Taliban's regime in Afghanistan with use of the same laws- 'the Shariat's law'; it ends up with genocide of Russian population in Chechnya; it ends up with huge number of terrorist acts the destruction of multilevel civilian buildings in Moscow is only few of them there were other devastated civilian buildings in other cities of Russia the lesser terrorist acts like bombs on squares or markets are unnumbered; it ends up with stealing people for ransom and slavery, YES, A SLAVERY can you imagine slavery in 20 century? They make slavery and stealing people for ransom as their main business. You cannot imagine the scale of it, every day I saw on TV that another group of people are missing and later they were found in Chechnya working for terrorist as SLAVES, I saw the eyes of this people when they were liberated, they were the most miserable human beings I ever saw in my life. And finally terrorist decided that Chechnya is small for their purposes and their start invasion in neighbor Dagestan. Are you still thinking that we are not suffered enough to strike back those bustards? Why do you think that we do not have right to defend ourself, what else should happen that gives the moral right to us to destroy this threat for our society? May be explosion one of our nuclear plants? They has such plans, but gladly not realized them. What in your eyes can give us right to defend our homes from bandits?
Most of you think that Chechnya is some kind of new Afghanistan (I mean soviet intervention in Afghanistan) for us. There is nothing common, NOTHING. I am better say a thousand times that we was wrong when we intervened Afghanistan, that we were wrong when invaded Finland, that we was bustard when we divided Poland etc, but what we are doing now- is right we have no choice.

. USA-NATO turns the head away and wistles incoherently while this is going on.

Try to do something and we teach you a lesson.

Why? Well, Russia is a valuable potential ally and has a large nuclear arsenal.

As for arsenal it is true, but as for ally what is it a joke? Do you know what NATO is the organization? Do you know it real and the only one purpose? I can enlighten you then; the main purpose of this organization is to be a military opponent of Soviet Union/Russia. Are you really so naive, that do not realizing this?

Milosevich performs ethnic cleansing in Kossovo. Inside the bounds of his own land (unlike Israel, that is). Yet, NATO invades (ie. bombs the **** out of) Yugoslavia and Milosevich is tried at Hague.

Well, suppose all I've typed above is useless. You do not understand why Yugoslavia was bombed.
I'll give you a hint:

Why? Because Yugoslavia was not trusted ally of the U.S.A

If Yeltsin/Putin would be right slaughtering people in Chechenya, Milosevic would have been right in Kosovo too. It's the same thing, and the UCK was/is also proven to be a terrorist organization.

Hi Ralph
I'm glad that you joined our showdowns.
(I've realizing that after my posts about Chechnya it is unpopular to be my ally, revoke you alliance immediately before it's not too late, tell them that you do not know me )
I am really glad that at least one man calls the things by real names. (Thank you Ralph, this is all I wanted to say to you)
To all:
Yes, UCK always was, it is now, and always will be a terrorist organization. Are you happy that you let your mass media brainwash you so well, that you supported terrorist organization with air strikes? How do you feel now? I suppose most of you think that USA and NATO done a favor to this world. Well, there are only two judges who can make right decision about events in Yugoslavia, the First is God, and the second is time. What Gods thought no one knows, but the second judge I suppose is able to declare the verdict. The time will show who was right. History will judge you for what of your politician's done. Many of you think that-

Israel is excercising ethnic cleansing at it's best, chasing away people from their homes to plant more and more settlements on foreign ground.

Look at yourself people, what have you done in Kosovo? Do you know anything about history of this land? I suppose you don't. Kosovo was Serbian territory for thousand years. Serbian Christian churches in Kosovo count UNESCO as world cultural treasures. There never was Muslims on this land. Before SU collapsed (yah… I know that I've started again my favorite song) so, before SU collapsed in Kosovo lived about 4% of Albanians and after SU fell all his satellites fell also. It was hard times for Yugoslavia, but even in hard times Serbs welcomes Albanian refuges and let them to settle down on Serbian lands. Few years later those guests declare theirs rights on this land as its own and yours countries help them to wipe out the native, Serbian population of Kosovo. With your help in 1999 albanians drive out Serbs from Kosovo. Today Albanians are representing the absolutely majority of Kosovo's population. Isn't it the same for what you've wanted to bring Sharon into international court for his crimes against humanity? Is the creation of country Israel is teaching you nothing? Do you not realize that you can't just drive out one nation from its land and settle this land with other nation without any further consequences? Btw, do you remember about later events in Macedonia? I wish I could know how it was described by your mass media. How they explained the fact that honorable, righteous Albanian freedom fighters launch an invasion in neighbor country? Are you realized that you make a mistake? I suppose you are not.
Well it is all very sad.
You do not understand the scale of danger. You do not understand what we are doing in Chechnya. You do not understand such monster you supported in 1999. You do not understand what the Taliban is. You do not understand that those 'people' (as for me not proper word to describe such bustards) are brothers, that they work together, work for world's terrorism.
I can understand the pain and the anger of American people after September 11; we've felt the same two years ago. It is sad they realized the scale of danger only after such tragedy. But it is better to realize it later then never. So tell me, my European neighbors what should happen in Europe what makes you understand that terrorists can understand only language of force? They do not understand any other language.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Willem


Public opinion had very little to do with the verdict of that case. Simpson was acquitted because the evidence didn't conclusively prove his guilt. In US law, as well as here in Canada, if there is so much as a "reasonable doubt" that the defendant in a case is innocent, then charges are generally dropped. Juries are quite often advised that they have a responsibility to do so. In Simpson's case, all the evidence against him was circumstantial, not concrete.

Well, I am not an expert in American court system. I’ve thought that public opinion has its impact on that case. As I know after a criminal court where Simpson was found to be not guilty, there was another court (not criminal, I don’t know how it calls) and jury of the second court found him to be guilty and made verdict that Simpson must pay big contribution to relatives of victims. Am I wrong?

[Serb]

Originally posted by Dry


No sorry, I don't know him. The only russian words I know are: tovaritch, bistro, glasnosk, perestroika, rasputitsia, katyusha, datcha, dushka and nipu nimei (?). So as long as it is not translated, I will not be able to read his books
Anyhow,
characters are IMO not the most important thing in the story, they are just the 'painting' of the story, not the 'hard core' of it.
The story of that ring of Power, is more a question about 'do Good have the right (or the strength) to use Evil's weapon in order to fight Evil without becoming evil himself.
Kill a killer?
No civil rights for murderers?

Of course I've suspected that you don't heart about him, he is young writer, but I am really find his book (I've reed only first book of his series) is a very interesting reading. It starts with the resurrection of Black men (the Evil one, I don know how to call him) and at the end of the books he becomes a good guy. The only event that makes me sad in this book, is that the Dragon (I don't remember his name) is sacrificed itself in battle to win time to let party consist of two dwarfs and one halfling to escape. Well it is really not important. As for the question, this question is old as this world. Are you sure that YOU can make right answer? And about this Perumov's book again in this book he continues to think upon this question.
P.S. I suppose that you misunderstand me. I do not want to say that criminals have no rights (only seriously sick people may think so). I've just wanted to hear the end of the story.
P.S.S. Your russian lexicon is really amazing. It shows our way of life very well, but you forget the most important word- Vodka
P.S.S.S. As I put correct number of 'S' letters? Can you give me another advice? Did you saw 'Lord of the rings' the movie? Is it worth to see?

[Willem]

Originally posted by Serb


Well, I am not an expert in American court system. I’ve thought that public opinion has its impact on that case. As I know after a criminal court where Simpson was found to be not guilty, there was another court (not criminal, I don’t know how it calls) and jury of the second court found him to be guilty and made verdict that Simpson must pay big contribution to relatives of victims. Am I wrong?

The second case was a civil suit brought about by the family of the murdered people. I can't even remember their names now. Meaning that it wasn't a criminal case but a private action. It's like if you were to damage a neighbour's home and he brings you before a judge, who orders you to pay for the repairs and other expenses. I'm not even sure if you have that in Russia or not, though I suspect you do. So the decision had no bearing on Simpson's criminal record and couldn't be used in order to send him to jail. All he was required to do was pay a lot of money to the families.

Almost everyone here in North America believed he was guilty, they still do, so if public opinion had anything at all to do with it, he would be in jail right now. But the prosecution didn't have enough evidence to "prove beyond a reasonable doubt" that he was guilty and so the jury had to drop the charges against him. I suspect many of them didn't believe he was innocent, but there wasn't enough conclusive proof to convict him.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Serb

Btw, do you remember about later events in Macedonia? I wish I could know how it was described by your mass media. How they explained the fact that honorable, righteous Albanian freedom fighters launch an invasion in neighbor country? Are you realized that you make a mistake? I suppose you are not.

Actually Western media doesn't portray them as freedom fighters. The NATO troops began having problems with them soon after they came to police the area. They demanded that the rebels disarm, the rebels refused. The western powers were not happy at all with the rebels, especially when they went into Macedonia, and that came through in the news casts as well. The general image was that they were dangerous hot heads just looking for trouble.

[Serb]

The western powers were not happy at all with the rebels, especially when they went into Macedonia, and that came through in the news casts as well. The general image was that they were dangerous hot heads just looking for trouble.

Did the bell do not ringed? Do you has ho feeling that NATO's support of such 'dangerous hot heads 'was the mistake?

The NATO troops began having problems with them soon after they came to police the area.

May be that's why NATO's contingent was running away and left all dirty work to Serb's army when found yourself in the middle of the new war? The performance of NATO's contingent in times when UCK attacked Macedonia is truly brilliant example how peacekeeping missions must be done. The NATO peacekeepers are cowardly running away when people around them start to shoot to each other, excellent work! Did western mass media changed their attitude about Serb's army when NATO starts talks with Serbs, and 'de fucto' put all peace keeping tasks in Macedonia on shoulders of Serb's army- the army long time portrayed by them as some kind of monsters or fascists? How mass media explained the fact that such terrible people are filled buffer zone between UCK and Macedonians and doing peacekeepers mission instead of NATO troops who cowardly run away from battlefield? And don't tell me that they were not running, I've remember this events very well.

They demanded that the rebels disarm, the rebels refused.

While Khavier Salana called results of ‘necessary harvest’ is as an acceptable. I don’t think that receiving of about 3000 old rifles instead approximately 15000 is very good. The UCK will never disarm until they receive their goals.
As for me, whole this stuff looks like another wrong bet.
Americans makes bet on ben Laden and support him in his war vs. SU. They seriously thought they will be able to control him after this war. The history shows that ben Laden just used Americans, and when the war against his most hated enemy- SU was over, he started war against his second most hated enemy- the USA. Everybody knows how ben Laden shows his gratitude for American's help in war vs. SU. I suppose NATO make wrong bet when they thought that they will be able to control UCK after the war. What are they blind? Do they don't have military intelligence? Do they never heard about 'the great and undividable Albania '- the UCK want to create? Did they was not known which territories terrorists see as the parts of this new empire? Kosovo and Macedonia is only part of those territories, full list is much greater. Did NATO waiting until time when their 'UCK friends' start to pay them for their help in war vs. Serbs with the same token as ben Laden paid Americans for their help in war vs. SU?

[Harovan]

Serb, don't count on me as an ally too much. I am not a trustworthy ally at this point. I may have a special relationship with Russia, because I lived in Russia for 5 years and can rightful say that I know it, but I will not defend Russia where I believe Russia is wrong. All I will do is to express my opinion.

It's an interesting discussion here in these 2 "America" threads, and that is probably the reason, why they haven't been closed by the Mods long ago, because the discussion here is mainly off-topic and has nothing to do with CivIII at all. I wasn't really gone, just lurking for quite a time.

I tend to agree with Arrian, the US policy (and the policy of their vassals in Western Europe) has always been dominated by self-interest, not principle. And this is probably why they turned away and whistled, while Russian tanks flatened Grosny. They have no benefit from an independent Chechnya. And Russia is still too mighty to be treated like Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq. The right is at the side of the strong.

About Israel I will abstain, it's a difficult thing and the history of my own country does not allow me to express freely what I think. I would probably not only been called a racist, but worse, if I did.

I first was against the NATO intervention in former Yugoslavia and had to agree later, that it was not so bad after all. But I won't call it a "peacekeeping mission" as our media does. And I vehemently deny the word "humanitary bombardements" (not a joke!) that went through our media at this time.

I first was against the US war in Afghanistan, but must admit after all, that it at least gave the Afghan people more freedom, while it missed (at this point) the proclaimed goal. But I won't call it "war against terrorism" like our media does.

[Dry]

Originally posted by Serb
P.S.S.S. As I put correct number of 'S' letters?

As P.S. means Post (after) Scriptum (written), I think it's more correct to write:
PS: blah-blah
PPS: ...
PPPS: ...


edit: changed script->scriptum