Stop the America-bashing!

[jasev]

Originally posted by Serb
But we have hymn of SU now. Oh man, I really love that song.

I must confess it sounds good. but I thought it was the same music with a different lyric. It really doesn't matter, I'm not able to difference between them

Edit: Almost forget SU union flag is the official flag of our army, the same old red banner.

Really? With the sickle and the hammer in the upper left corner? Curious. Really interesting.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Serb
[

You forget about invasion in Vietnam and bombardments of Yugoslavia. Oops I suppose its different case, my mistake. I’ve forget that this was done by Americans and it can be wrong or bad, of course their have honorable and righteous reasons for those actions, not to install puppet governments.

Vietnam wasn't an invasion. They were invited by the South Vietnam government to help them in their civil war. Before you start bashing the US for rewriting history, I'd suggest you take a look at some of the misinformation your government has passed out. I suspect they're just as much at fault as the US. Propoganda has no borders, it's a tool used by all governments. And I'm sorry to say, the SU was notorious for this.

[Willem]

Originally posted by jasev

Really? With the sickle and the hammer in the upper left corner? Curious. Really interesting.

And also a little scary. It makes me wonder where their allegiances lie. That's all the world needs right now, a military coup to reinstall the Soviet system.

[jasev]

Originally posted by Willem
Vietnam wasn't an invasion. They were invited by the South Vietnam government to help them in their civil war.

So did the SU in Afghanistan. And the US armed the mudjaideen that fought against them: many russian veterans may have still nightmares with the stinger missiles that destroyed their helicopters. The difference is that after the US left Vietnam, a state was stablished. Not a very humanitary state (my god, what an euphemysm... I'm starting to talk like a politician), but a solid state after all. When the SU left Afghanistan... well, we all know what happened.

[Willem]

Originally posted by jasev


So did the SU in Afghanistan. And the US armed the mudjaideen that fought against them: many russian veterans may have still nightmares with the stinger missiles that destroyed their helicopters. The difference is that after the US left Vietnam, a state was stablished. Not a very humanitary state (my god, what an euphemysm... I'm starting to talk like a politician), but a solid state after all. When the SU left Afghanistan... well, we all know what happened.

Well you can't hold the SU totally responsible for that. America had every opportunity of staying behind and helping the Afghans rebuild their country. But since it was no longer of any strategic value, they just left their so-called allies high and dry. That's not a very honourable way of treating a country who helped defeat an enemy. I'm really not surprised that there was so much resentment against the US there, the Afghan people were essentially abandoned and left to make the best of a ruined country. Though somehow I doubt very much the US will make the same mistake again.

[jasev]

Originally posted by Willem
Well you can't hold the SU totally responsible for that.

My god. Is my english SO poor that you didn't understand me at all?
I didn't hold the SU responsible for "that" at all.

[Willem]

Originally posted by jasev


My god. Is my english SO poor that you didn't understand me at all?
I didn't hold the SU responsible for "that" at all.

Sorry, I misunderstood. So what was your point then?

[Serb]

Originally posted by jasev


I must confess it sounds good. but I thought it was the same music with a different lyric. It really doesn't matter, I'm not able to difference between them

Yeah, you right its the same music with little different lyric, but I realy happy that this song returns as our official hymn. It's so cool.

Really? With the sickle and the hammer in the upper left corner? Curious. Really interesting.

Yes it is. A year ago our parlament makes law by which 3 colored buner is an official flag of Russia, song of Alexandrov and Michalkov (btw, he is an author of all previos versions of lyric for that hymn, he is about 90 year old, but still write!) is an official hymn of Russia and makes old red buner with the sickle and the hammer in the upper left corner is an official flag of Russian army.

To Willem:

And also a little scary. It makes me wonder where their allegiances lie.

Yeah, its fear time.
Warning!!! Russians are coming.

That's all the world needs right now, a military coup to reinstall the Soviet system.

I'm glad that you think so. It's not my words, but yours.

P.S. Am I scare you enough? Sorry I was kidding. Don't take it so serious.

P.S.S. But don't forget about this. Your's worse nightmare is return. The day will come and we will come for you, for all of you. We are so evil, so terrible so...
Oops, I think I did it again...Sorry

[Serb]

Originally posted by Arrian
You were born in the former USSR. Do you live in Russia now?

Yes I do. The most part of my life was spent in Siberia (you know, where a bears walking on a streets , actually I live in city with 1 500 000 inhabitants). Well, to prevent further questions I must say that I’m not of Serbian origin and even never was in Serbia, I am 100% Russian. My nickname is simple combination of first three letters of my name and first letter of my family name, and yes I am living in Russia now.

I'm just curious, and if you do, I'm curious about one other thing - are you glad you can vote and communicate your thoughts freely to others? Those are things I tend to take for granted, but if I were to ever lose those basic rights, I would be unable to accept that loss. Stalin, as I recall, didn't give a damn about those rights (I imagine he feared them, actually, just like any other despot). ").

I am happy about this. You do not need to convince me that freedom is cool stuff, I know this, and I have the same views on this subject.

One of the things that angers me most about my goverment's policies is that they seem to care about freedom & democracy just about as much as Stalin did when it comes to other countries (e.g. "Sure, go ahead and oppress your people, so long as you sell us oil

On the other hand USA government may take military action against democratic country if they don’t like an absolutely legitimacy elected president of this country. USA government is truly defender of democracy in the world.

You mentioned that you think I unfairly characterize what the USSR did as bad, "simply because SU has different ideology." Well, ideology is pretty important. And to be completely honest, I don't think much of that Soviet ideology. I was discussing oppression and/or the lack of personal freedom.

I’ve already told you that I have the same views about oppression or lack of personal freedom. But I’ve talked about something a little different. I was tried to said that crimes are always crimes, and no meter who is a criminal- a communist, democrat, fascist or whatever he is still criminal. Thinking that murderer with democratic views is much better than murderer with communist’s views is simple insane as I see it, and I hope you agree with that.

A quick thought about nukes. There is nothing I hate more than hypocrisy, and the USA is pretty damn hypocritical about "weapons of mass destruction" considering we're the only ones to every actually use nuclear weapons to kill people. I'm not particularly worried about governments having nukes... it's the fanatic with a mini nuke in a backpack that I see as a threat (not that I lose sleep over it... what's the point of that?).

Yes, USA government two-facedness really drives me mad. But USA have double standards not only for weapons of mass destruction but for many other questions too.

As for the talks with Russia to reduce the number of nukes we've got, I was under the impression that Bush wanted to just unilaterally reduce the USA's nuclear arsenal and hope Russian reciprocated, with no formal treaty. I lost track of that issue after Sept. 11th, I admit, so I could be wrong.

Well, actually it was Putin initiative to reduce both of ours nuclear potentials. But Bush’s answer really put us in prostration. I know that Americans are very practical people, so tell me would you trust to WORDS of the men who easily breaks official agreements signed on paper? I suppose you wouldn’t. And the one more thing Bush actually do not want to destroy whose nukes he saying to us- ‘Hey guys we are friends now, so you have to destroy your missiles, and I can assure you we’ll make the same… someday…. maybe… and don’t take it so hard that we break official treaties those treaties were so old…. So just trust to our words… we can not lie to you… we are friends now remember?..” What is it a joke? He think that we are idiots? Ah, one more thing, his last proposal is that USA will not actually destroy the nukes just disarm the missiles and put warheads to storage till better days. Do you know how many time it takes to attach a warhead to missile? Few hours I suppose. Is it reduction of nukes?

[Willem]

Originally posted by Serb

To Willem:

Yeah, its fear time.
Warning!!! Russians are coming.

I'm glad that you think so. It's not my words, but yours.

P.S. Am I scare you enough? Sorry I was kidding. Don't take it so serious.

P.S.S. But don't forget about this. Your's worse nightmare is return. The day will come and we will come for you, for all of you. We are so evil, so terrible so...
Oops, I think I did it again...Sorry

Well pardon me for being concerned, but having grown up in the MAD era, I really don't want to go through that again. There's enough things to worry about in this world, I don't want to put another nuclear arms race back on my list. If a revolution happened once in Russia, it can happen again. Having a cultural precedence makes the possibility that much more tangible, especially considering the problems your country has been experiencing since the fall of the SU. I'm not trying to imply that Russians are evil, I know they're not, but I'm sure you yourself must realize that there are still many people who miss the old ways of running your country.

[Serb]

Willem,
You do not have to worry about this.
We have a nice saying –“ nikogda ne nastupai na grabli dvajdy.» It means- never put yourself in the same troubles twice. We suffer enough to understand that totalitarianism is not the best government type. I can assure you that our today’s problems are much, much lesser than in it was in 1991. It is myth created by Hollywood, that in Russia many people are still missing the old ways of running my country. I’ve laugh long enough when I saw “Air Force One” with Harrison Ford, I really like him as an actor, so I don’t understand how he agreed to shoot in this movie. Such silly films create myths that we are still threatening the world. I think Hollywood needs someone to be bad; it needs “image of enemy”. They choose Russians for that role long time ago, in times of Cold war, and still can’t let us go. If you come to Russia you will see that there is nothing common between Hollywood movies and our real life. So don’t worry, we will never return to Communism, no one want it here. As for our symbols, I can see nothing wrong in fact that Red banner is an official flag of our army now. You know how it calls here in Russia? The banner of victory (victory in WW2 of course), it was always an official banner of our army. I can see nothing wrong in fact that we treat our traditions.
I think other thing should concern you. We all should be concerned by actions of USA government, it is they who starting another nuclear arms race. They broke the major agreement about anti-missile defense signed in 1972, they start to build an anti-missile shield and they greatly increased money spending for military purposes. The result of such actions is that Russia, China and if I am not mistaken India already increased their military budget. Any military expert may say you that so-called “renegade countries” is no real threat for USA, that the major goal of American national anti-missile shield is to neutralize nuclear potentials of India, Pakistan and China on the first stage, and in perspective (within 20-25 years) to neutralize nuclear potential of Russia. Isn’t it the beginning of new arms race?

[Willem]

Originally posted by Serb

I think other thing should concern you. We all should be concerned by actions of USA government, it is they who starting another nuclear arms race. They broke the major agreement about anti-missile defense signed in 1972, they start to build an anti-missile shield and they greatly increased money spending for military purposes. The result of such actions is that Russia, China and if I am not mistaken India already increased their military budget. Any military expert may say you that so-called “renegade countries” is no real treat to USA, that the major goal of American national anti-missile shield is to neutralize nuclear potentials of India, Pakistan and China on the first stage, and in perspective (within 20-25 years) to neutralize nuclear potential of Russia. Isn’t it the beginning of new arms race?

Believe me, I'm no more happy about US policy on this issue than you are. I think it was wrong to unilaterally revoke the ABM treaty, and I think the whole missile defence idea is just a big waste of money and resources. Not to mention, as you say, that it does leave open the possibilty of a new arms race. This notion of the Bush administeration that they're protecting themselves from rogue states is absolutely absurd. And as Sept. 11 has revealed, a missile attack is the least of their worries. If they're concerned about a rogue state, they'd be better off worrying about a suitcase bomb, rather than a missile falling from the sky.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Willem


and I think the whole missile defence idea is just a big waste of money and resources.

Absolutely. They already wanted to build SDI once. None defense system can give 100% guaranty that it will not be penetrated by missile.
I am glad that you agree that they are lying about threat of rogue states. As for me, they are making a really big mistake.

[jasev]

Originally posted by Willem
the whole missile defence idea is just a big waste of money and resources.

That's the point. Do you know who will recieve that money? I'll state a theory: the companies that will design and buid the missile defense system gave a huge amount of money to G.W. Bush presidential campaign.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Serb

Absolutely. They already wanted to build SDI once. None defense system can give 100% guaranty that it will not be penetrated by missile.

Agreed. They'd be much better off if they just fostered good relations with other countries and showed a sincere desire to be a "good neighbour" in the world community. So far Bush has failed miserably in that regard. The only reason he's been able to pull together this anti-terrorist coalition is through sheer sympathy. Frankly, this rhetoric about the "axis of evil" he's uttering makes me rather nervous. I certainly hope he's not foolish enough to go after Iraq or Iran when he's finished mopping up in Afghanistan.

As for them lying about their intentions, I don't believe they're stupid enough to really take the threat of a rogue state seriously, however I do believe that their intention is purely defensive. They're merely trying to provide themselves with a sense of security, albeit a misguided one.