Stop the America-bashing!

[Spiffor]

Sure McDonalds are an underculture, and definitely not what the Americans should show. But ask to a foreign child about America : he will say it's the country of McDonalds (among other things).
McDonalds is sure a despicable image of America, but it is its identity in the rest of the world, with Coca Cola, and Hollywood crappy movies.
Among the foreigners, not all would think about Mark Twain or the values of freedom, only the America-lovers would think of them before thinking of the aforementioned underculture.

I'm myself pushing myself to find elements of valuable "culture" in America. I'm suprised I found

[Dauphin]

When it comes to cultural worldwide dominance I think that only desirable cultural influences will spread across borders. For example "Gun culture" is something America is famous for, but I don't see that spreading like McDonalds to every corner of the globe.

There are a whole host of other Americanisms that just fail miserably when they are forced onto other nations. The "Can I pack your groceries" assistance was removed by American stores in Europe because customers were put-off. And have you noticed SUVs overtaking the streets of Europe and Asia? Thought not.

Like it or not, McDonalds and crappy movies have succeeded because they do, at some level, appeal to the populace of the world.

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
The "Can I pack your groceries" assistance was removed by American stores in Europe because customers were put-off.

Not desirable? It is a very nice practice. It would have to be reinstated asap. This is precisely one of the very many things that I miss from America when in Europe.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Rosacrux


...in the craphole?

And... peeps, punk is British. Influences from USA? Certainly. Nothing in music is parthenogenesis. But the rage was local. Punk has developed (for Malcolm's satisfaction) to a revolutionary movement and this had nothing to do with the intellectually interesting but albeit conventional as apple pie, american resembling genre at the time.

I'm afraid you're absolutely wrong. Credit where credit is due- punk originated in America, in New York, and if you read Jon Savage's book (England's Dreaming), you will find easily collated for your better reference, interviews with such luminaries as Glen Matlock (an early Sex Pistol) who mentions the material and influences and records that McLaren brought back with him.
If you consider punk as rebellion, then in Britain at least, it was pretty comfortable rebellion, with pre-Thatcher levels of housing benefit, social security, student grants and dole. Rather different in New York in 1973-74, for the likes of Patti Smith, Richard Hell and others- cold water flats and living hand-to-mouth.

There was little apple pie about Patti Smith's 'P!ss Factory/Hey Joe', or Suicide's early recordings- all of which pre-date British punk.

[Ironikinit]

It gets old, the hamburger thing. It seems like there's this obilgation for people to bring it up. Like when I read articles about US foreign policy written in Europe, quite often they'll have some reference to McDonald's. I don't notice it when I've read articles about other countries.

AUSTRALIAN MONEY WOES IMPACT REGION

The Economist June, 2001

...Labour representitive. Australians love meat pies and often eat them for lunch. The Australian dollar fell in comparison to other regional...

It just doesn't happen.

Well, actually, it probably does, just that I'm not sensitive to it. There are certain Australians stereotypes current in the US.

V.O.: "How Australian Bruce O'Malley eats a Reese's."

Bruce: "Oi takes a boyt and hucks it at a wallabe, mate, like a boomyrang." (Hucks candy.)

V.O.: "Nice shot. Too bad about that convict ancestry."

Bruce: "Bewdy."

The sick thing is that the ad is more of an embarassment to me than it should be to any Australian, because it's a load of crap.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ironikinit

Well, actually, it probably does, just that I'm not sensitive to it. There are certain Australians stereotypes current in the US.

V.O.: "How Australian Bruce O'Malley eats a Reese's."

Bruce: "Oi takes a boyt and hucks it at a wallabe, mate, like a boomyrang." (Hucks candy.)

V.O.: "Nice shot. Too bad about that convict ancestry."

Bruce: "Bewdy."

The sick thing is that the ad is more of an embarassment to me than it should be to any Australian, because it's a load of crap.

Ah yes, and the average American rides out on a mustang and slays a buffalo with a bow and arrow, before bringing it back to the ranch for some Boston beans and ribs.....

It reminds me of an excruciatingly embarassing curry sauce advertisement in Great Britain, where some bright spark at an agency decided that 'real' British Asians would be great for advertising these sauces. The Sikh couple featured included a husband whose turban sat plonked awkwardly on his head and who was conspicuously clean shaven; the point being, that if he were observant enough a Sikh to wear a turban, he would undoubtedly have had a full beard too.

Perhaps in Melbourne's gourmet mecca we are overly fortunate, but although wallaby and kangaroo (and emu too) can be bought at Victoria Market, most people's lunches run the gamut from Laotian omelettes to pho, tapas and Nepalese goat curry.

[Arrian]

I think McDonald's (or "Mickey-D's") is often equated with America, not just because it is ubiquitous, but also because it is a good example of a large, greedy, multinational corporation - and a very successful one at that. It seems to me that many people see the USA as the symbol of capitalism at it's worst (and, admittedly, we are surely the most capitalist nation on Earth). There are plenty of examples of huge U.S. companies expanding into third world countries and taking advantage of people who will work for 10 cents an hour, while dumping toxic chemicals out the back door. Then there is Enron.

So, when you see those Golden Arches popping up everywhere, selling total crap to people for a huge profit, you may not like it. The fact that many countries are home to the headquarters of large, greedy multinational corporations gets lost in the shuffle - America is the biggest and the baddest... and to be fair, the most obnoxious, particularly with regard to pollution controls.

-Arrian

[Rosacrux]

Originally posted by molly bloom



I'm afraid you're absolutely wrong. Credit where credit is due- punk originated in America, in New York, and if you read Jon Savage's book (England's Dreaming), you will find easily collated for your better reference, interviews with such luminaries as Glen Matlock (an early Sex Pistol) who mentions the material and influences and records that McLaren brought back with him.
If you consider punk as rebellion, then in Britain at least, it was pretty comfortable rebellion, with pre-Thatcher levels of housing benefit, social security, student grants and dole. Rather different in New York in 1973-74, for the likes of Patti Smith, Richard Hell and others- cold water flats and living hand-to-mouth.

There was little apple pie about Patti Smith's 'P!ss Factory/Hey Joe', or Suicide's early recordings- all of which pre-date British punk.

MollyBloom, I think you got me wrong. The PUNK I, and the whole Europe knows of is British, not American. That's what I am trying to tell you. "Some recordings" in the USA do not consist "a movement", no matter how revolutionary or whatever they are.

I have lived thrugh the pank era and frankly the first time I heard of Patti Smith was in the early '80's - when the Punk rage was already steaming down in old Albion.

The Ramones are another story. They are good. Influental. Whatever. They ain't Punk. Period.

The Punk culture is british. You and I have to agree on that. As I said, the influences stand and perhaps P. Smith and the others did walked that path first. Musically and that's it. But it did not develop into a movement and if it did the brit punk was not a copy of it.

Plus, we both know that P.S's most controversial recordings never faired well in USA - and the mainstay of the American society was not influenced by it anyway. On the contrary, in Europe the punk movement developed into something HUGE! Probably you weren't around at the time so you don't know, but believe me for I was.

Last but not least... New York ain't USA. It's something else. Everybody knows that

[Rosacrux]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
When it comes to cultural worldwide dominance I think that only desirable cultural influences will spread across borders. For example "Gun culture" is something America is famous for, but I don't see that spreading like McDonalds to every corner of the globe.

Nope, only profitable cultural influences spread across borders. With all the local restrictions all over the world for guns, I wouldn't see how an american corporation can profit by selling guns to the masses (you'll have to export the cowboys first )
OTOH, there are no restrictions to junk food

. And have you noticed SUVs overtaking the streets of Europe and Asia? Thought not.

Come over to Greece. Thousands of SUVs in Athens. Houndreds of thousands, actually. Where do you live?

Like it or not, McDonalds and crappy movies have succeeded because they do, at some level, appeal to the populace of the world.

No, they succeed because they are marketed better than local products and represent the installment of the "Global village" trend - everyone wants to feel like a "citizen of the world" nowadays.

[Ironikinit]

Here's a cite for the punk discussion:

"Although Britain wasn't the birthplace of punk rock, it was the place where punk had the greatest musical and cultural impact, catching hold as the ultimate music of outrage and rebellion in a way it never quite duplicated in America. British punk was partly inspired by the back-to-basics rock & roll of the pub rock movement and the anything-goes theatrics of glam rock, but the main catalysts were early New York punks like the Ramones and the New York Dolls."

From http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=C11194

AMG is a good source. I don't know about the "never quite duplicated in America" bit. I think it could be argued that grunge was just warmed up punk, although admittedly often fused with metal.

The McDonald's thing, if that's what people think of when they think of America, I guess there's no helping it. Nothing I can do, anyway. Most countries have food items associated with them. Nobody really thinks that all Germans ever eat is sausage.

Burger King is owned by a British corporation, I believe. Doesn't make it British in origin any more than Taco Bell is Mexican, I'm just saying that these companies are international in operation and ownership. The hamburger itself isn't all that American, just look at the name.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Rosacrux


Probably you weren't around at the time so you don't know, but believe me for I was.

Last but not least... New York ain't USA. It's something else. Everybody knows that

As I said in an earlier post, I'm an old, i.e., an early punk. I was there when it began, and can tell you that the formative influence was the punk scene in New York- now how you can believe that Richard Hell, Tom Verlaine, Television, Patti Smith, the New York Dolls, Suicide et al, don't consitute a scene, a movement, well....

They played gigs together at C.B.G.B.'s and elsewhere, Hell gigging with Verlaine, for instance, in a similar way to how the members of the later Liverpool scene of 'Teardrop Explodes', 'Echo and the Bunnymen' and 'Wah' interacted.

I'm suprised you heard of Patti Smith only as late as the early 80s. For me and many other Brits, 'Horses' was a defining album of the mid-70's, and with its referencing of 50s/60s music, Rimbaud and cries of 'Vive l'anarchie', touching on what were 'accepted' icons/progenitors of the punk movement. All her albums, 'Horses', 'Radio Ethiopia' (again the Rimbaud influence) and especially the breakthrough 'commercial' album, 'Easter', were all released by 1978, and she had had several headlining tours of Britain and France.

As to what punk eventually became, that is a different matter. It's rather like believing rock and roll began in Great Britain, because the Beatles and the Rolling Stones were heavily influenced by Chuck Berry, Muddy Waters and Big Bill Broonzy.

If you don't believe me, then read Savage's book, 'England's Dreaming'- if you get early members of the Sex Pistols saying how they were influenced by American punks, then clearly the people who were doing the influencing, are the ones who can be said to have begun the movement.

It's much easier to have a 'national' movement with smaller numbers and less work in Britain- if something appears on the B.B.C. evening news, then it'll be all over Great Britain. Rather more difficult in a country with as many time zones and regional differences and interests as the United States.

I'm also well aware that New York isn't America; similarly, London wasn't Great Britain, as was neither Liverpool, or the Manchester of Joy Division and the Smiths and New Order, or the Coventry of the TwoTone Scene, or the Bristol of Portishead and Massive Attack and Tricky.

It's entirely possible to have a national/international music scene grow from one main base- Seattle and grunge, for instance, but as many fans know, American punk was not limited to New York, although New York acted as a focal point, and American punk eventually would give us groups as disparate as Teenage Jesus and the Jerks, X, Devo, Pere Ubu and Wayne County and the Electric Chairs. For instance, when the Ramones played Great Britain, they were touted as a punk band, and accepted as such. The retrospective judging of punk/non-punk based on what commercialized/mainstream British punk developed into, is anachronistic. Groups as diverse as Blondie and the Ramones were all called punk in the beginning.

The American beginning, that is....

This online shrine/site to C.B.G.B. gave me great pleasure and waves of nostalgia reading it:

http://www.cbgb.com/

[Ironikinit]

This thread is the first time I've run into the idea that the Ramones aren't considered punk. Where's that come from?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ironikinit
This thread is the first time I've run into the idea that the Ramones aren't considered punk. Where's that come from?

From an anachronistic view of punk, I suspect. After all, they did give us the wonderful 'Sheena is A Punk Rocker' which I can vividly recall sweatily pogoing to.....

' The Ramones Biography:

In the mid-'70s, the Ramones shaped the sound of punk rock in New York with simple, fast songs, deadpan lyrics, no solos, and an impenetrable wall of guitar chords. Twenty years later, with virtually all of their peers either retired or having moved on to forms other than punk, Joey and Johnny Ramone, the band's core, continued adamantly to parlay the same determinedly basic sound.

The group formed in 1974, after the foursome graduated or left high school in Forest Hills, New York. The original lineup featured Joey on drums, Dee Dee sharing guitar with Johnny, and Tommy as manager, but they soon settled on their recording setup. The Ramones gravitated toward the burgeoning scene at CBGB, where their 20-minute sets of rapid-fire, under two-and-a-half-minute songs earned them a recording contract before any of their contemporaries except Patti Smith.

In 1976 'The Ramones' was a definitive punk statement, with songs like "Beat on the Brat," "Blitzkrieg Bop," and "Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue" - 14 of them, clocking in at under 30 minutes. The group traveled to England in 1976, giving the nascent British punk scene the same boost they provided to New Yorkers. Before the year was out, 'Ramones Leave Home' had been released. Then as now, the band toured almost incessantly.

With their next two singles, the group began to soften their sound slightly. "Sheena is a Punk Rocker" and "Rockaway Beach" made explicit their debt to Sixties AM hit styles such as bubblegum and surf music, and both made the lower reaches of the Top 100. They were included on Rocket to Russia, which also contained the ballad "Here Today, Gone Tomorrow." At this point Tommy quit the group, preferring his behind-the-scenes activity as coproducer, "disguised" as T. Erdelyi (his real name).'

excerpted from the Rolling Stone online Ramones biography.

Of course, because the Ramones never resembled what British punk stereotypically eventually became (the spiked hair, mohawks, bondage trousers), it's easy to forget they were early progenitors of the sub-three minute thrash, in contrast to the three and a half hour (slight exaggeration) prog rock guitar or keyboard solo monstrosities of Kansas, Rush, Yes, E.L.P. and so forth. In punk's early days in Britain there was no 'uniform' style- as photographs in Savage's book show.

[Big Fish]

Oh and by the way on the top of the third page there was a discussion on who invented the internet. The precurser to the internet was created by the US military as a way to quickly send documents. The browser was created by England. Also american achevments. Electricity, the light bulb, the assembily line, the bessimer prosses (quick refinement of steel)

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Big Fish
Oh and by the way on the top of the third page there was a discussion on who invented the internet. The precurser to the internet was created by the US military as a way to quickly send documents. The browser was created by England. Also american achevments. Electricity, the light bulb, the assembily line, the bessimer prosses (quick refinement of steel)

I don't quite see how 'electricity' is an American invention; and the Bessemer process was invented by that famous non-American, Sir Henry Bessemer

Henry Bessemer was born on January 19, 1813 in Charlton, Hertfordshire, England. Bessemer developed the first process for mass-producing steel inexpensively. The dominant steel manufacturing technology of today is an extension and refinement of the one developed by Bessemer.

'The early experiments at Baxter House were so far successful, as to justify myself and some of my friends in entering into partnership, and erecting in the town of Sheffield, a steel works which still remains in active operation under the style of "Henry Bessemer and Company, Limited." These works were established both for commercial purposes, and also to serve as a pioneer works or school, where the process was for several years exhibited to any iron or steel manufacturers who desired to take a license to work under my patents. All of these were allowed, either personally or by their managers, to see their own iron converted prior to their taking a licence. '

an extract from Sir Henry's autobiography. That's Sheffield in Yorkshire, in Britain, by the way.

As far as electricty goes:

'Around 600 BC Greeks found that by rubbing an 'electron' (a hard fossilised resin that today is known as Amber) against a fur cloth, it would attract particles of straw. This strange effect remained a mystery for over 2000 years, until, around AD 1600, Dr William Gilbert investigated the reactions of amber and magnets and first recorded the word 'Electric' in a report on the theory of magnetism.
Gilbert's experiments led to a number of investigations by many pioneers in the development of electricity technology over the next 350 years.

Galvani and Volta

In 1786, Luigi Galvani, an Italian professor of medicine, found that when the leg of a dead frog was touched by a metal knife, the leg twitched violently. Galvani thought that the muscles of the frog must contain electricity. By 1792 another Italian scientist, Alessandro Volta, disagreed: he realised that the main factors in Galvani's discovery were the two different metals - the steel knife and the tin plate - apon which the frog was lying. Volta showed that when moisture comes between two different metals, electricity is created. This led him to invent the first electric battery, the voltaic pile, which he made from thin sheets of copper and zinc separated by moist pasteboard.
In this way, a new kind of electricity was discovered, electricity that flowed steadily like a current of water instead of discharging itself in a single spark or shock. Volta showed that electricity could be made to travel from one place to another by wire, thereby making an important contribution to the science of electricity.

Michael Faraday

The credit for generating electric current on a practical scale goes to the famous English scientist, Michael Faraday. Faraday was greatly interested in the invention of the electromagnet, but his brilliant mind took earlier experiments still further. If electricity could produce magnetism, why couldn't magnetism produce electricity.
In 1831, Faraday found the solution. Electricity could be produced through magnetism by motion. He discovered that when a magnet was moved inside a coil of copper wire, a tiny electric current flows through the wire. Of course, by today's standards, Faraday's electric dynamo or electric generator was crude, and provided only a small electric current be he discovered the first method of generating electricity by means of motion in a magnetic field.


Thomas Edison and Joseph Swan

In 1878 Joseph Swan, a British scientist, invented the incandescent filament lamp and within twelve months Edison made a similar discovery in America.
Swan and Edison later set up a joint company to produce the first practical filament lamp. Prior to this, electric lighting had been my crude arc lamps.
Edison used his DC generator to provide electricity to light his laboratory and later to illuminate the first New York street to be lit by electric lamps, in September 1882. Edison's successes were not without controversy, however - although he was convinced of the merits of DC for generating electricity, other scientists in Europe and America recognised that DC brought major disadvantages.


George Westinghouse and Nikola Tesla

Westinghouse was an American inventor and industrialist who purchased and developed Nikola Tesla's patented motor for generating alternating current. The work of Westinghouse, Tesla and others gradually persuaded American society that the future lay with AC rather than DC (Adoption of AC generation enabled the transmission of large blocks of electrical, power using higher voltages via transformers, which would have been impossible otherwise). Today the unit of measurement for magnetic fields commemorates Tesla's name (that's the Croatia born Serbian inventor, later naturalized American citizen, Tesla)

Andre Ampere and George Ohm

Andre Marie Ampere, a French mathematician who devoted himself to the study of electricity and magnetism, was the first to explain the electro-dynamic theory. A permanent memorial to Ampere is the use of his name for the unit of electric current.
George Simon Ohm, a German mathematician and physicist, was a college teacher in Cologne when in 1827 he published, "The Galvanic Circuit Investigated Mathematically". His theories were coldly received by German scientists but his research was recognised in Britain and he was awarded the Copley Medal in 1841. His name has been given to the unit of electrical resistance.'

It's difficult to see from this brief overview how 'electricity' is an American invention.