Stop the America-bashing!

[siredgar]

While I almost never included America when I played any of the Civilization series (starting from the original computer version by the way), it should not be debated as to whether it should be included or not.

America is a powerful national grouping with its own distinct brand of culture and identity. Yes, it is a relatively new "civilization", but so is France or England to the people of Egypt or China:

America-- 300 years
England-- 1,500 years
France-- 2,000 years
China-- 5,000 years
Egypt-- 6,000 years

These are all approximate numbers, so please don't debate with me on a few hundred years or so.

If we do our math, Egypt is about four times older than England which is about five times older than America. If the English call Americans "new", to the Egyptians this would be like the pot calling the kettle black!

Having lived in Europe for a while, I am familiar with the resentment that many Europeans have against the "upstart" Americans. The English are particularly vehemently critical of their former colony. This is partly because they have acheived so much in such little time. It is, in some ways, similar to the way the Chinese and Koreans feel towards the relative newcomers in Asian power politics, the Japanese.

However, it is also partly because of the relative decline of European power. Many Europeans will admit to you that they feel that Europe is slowly declining.

Personally, I usually play "Britain" and claim New York, Boston, etc as "British" cities.

Nevertheless, in my opinion, for Europeans to say that America does not belong in Civ III is truly "arrogant".

[siredgar]

Measurement of years.

Another point:

Early in the game of Civ III, thousands of years zip by just like that. However, later in the game, it goes one year per turn. So, can someone do the calculations on how many turns Egypt was at its height and how that compares to America?

[YefeiPi]

I don't know, but when I think of America, distinctive culture does not come to mind.

[Dauphin]

Eh? What you chatting 'bout?

Having lived in Europe for a while, I am familiar with the resentment that many Europeans have against the "upstart" Americans. The English are particularly vehemently critical of their former colony. This is partly because they have acheived so much in such little time. It is, in some ways, similar to the way the Chinese and Koreans feel towards the relative newcomers in Asian power politics, the Japanese.

However, it is also partly because of the relative decline of European power. Many Europeans will admit to you that they feel that Europe is slowly declining

Where do you draw your conclusions from, because they are very different to the general feeling of most people I know.

1) We don't hold resentment for what you do or have done, the cause for most anti-american feeling is the way you do things and your attitude, generally seen as arrogant.

2) We don't see a decline in European power. Todays Europeans are just more concerned with personal welfare than global dominance so it isn't even an issue. Further, with the EU's integration we feel stronger as an economic bloc.

[Trifna]

Originally posted by YefeiPi
I don't know, but when I think of America, distinctive culture does not come to mind.

So I'll try to put some distinctive stuff...

it is the culture of:
fast-food
fast-everything
free market
comsumption society


All this seems pretty representative of what they think, how they think, who they are: representative of their culture. It's a culture of "as a person, do what you desire in the limit of the laws". the generalities of American culture seems pretty distinctive to me. The mix of culture they are made a long way from what it was originally, the whole is bigger enough from the sum of the parts.

[KoalaBear33]

I don't think this game tries to include the civlizations that really dominated the world. There are a lot of civilizations in the game that really didn't do much in the long term. I don't think America really belongs here but they deserve to be included more than Germans, Russians, etc. I think civs from civlization 1 were more historically accurate. Civs like the Inca, Aztecs, Vikings, etc did more things in a longer period of time. The civs that were included are really for selling the game (not historical accuracy or fun factor). For instance, the Spanish should be included before the Russians. Also how about civs like the large Turkish empire?

KoalaBear33

[War4ever]

well lets face it ......many of the tribes in civ have had some sort of power in the world, or large populice, or ancient beginnings.....

culture in america is rampant all over the world.... MCdonalds, coke...etc.... while these aren't the pyramids... americas culture is rampant everywhere...

more people speak english in china than in any other culture in the world.... not that english is american...... but thats not the point.

like it or not....american culture in its form is everywhere......

that said.... iroquois are a little weird to have in civ but then again....they were slaughtered by the "amazing" american culture and warfare......

this is a mockery of reality of course.....so take with a grain of salt

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by War4ever
that said.... iroquois are a little weird to have in civ but then again....they were slaughtered by the "amazing" american culture and warfare......

My guess is that as long as you keep bashing others, others will keep bashing you.

[Ecowiz Returns]

I think all this questioning if the Americans are a Civilization as no sense at all.

True, USA has only less than 300 years.

True, most of cultural roots come from England.

But let's not forget the USA is one of the first multicultural countries in the World. Remember the sad event of the 11th of Septmeber. Almost every world nation has someone to cry about for his death in the World Trade Center.

The same way we find in history cities flourishing with trade and cultural interaction (Babilon, Athens, Rome, Antuerp, Lisbon, Venice, London...) now New York is just The Most Important City in the World .

Guys, let's take out both Russia and American. Now, which civilization we have to start the Space Race with?

We cannot only look back and forget the single fact that History is on the making right now. And in future years, the XXth century and, at least the beggining of the XXIst century will be recalled as the times of American Dominance.

And, although most unfortunate, it's normal to be arrogant when you're on the top. We Portuguese know, we've been there.

[jasev]

Originally posted by KoalaBear33
I think civs from civlization 1 were more historically accurate. Civs like the Inca, Aztecs, Vikings, etc did more things in a longer period of time.

Sorry, bad examples. The Inca only lasted as a civilization about 200 years, and they were a true kingdom (more exactly, an empire) only for 100 years until the spanish arrived. The aztecs founded Tenochtitlan on 1325, so they lasted almost 200 years. And the vikings... well, they achieved great navigation advances, but I'm not sure they are a true civilization. I tend to consider them more as barbarians.

[Oligarf]

Been there done that

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28065

Just go here to discuss this matter, I like the subject but discussing it in several places at the same time saying the same things, is simply not fun.

[siredgar]

Re: Been there done that

Originally posted by Oligarf

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28065

Just go here to discuss this matter, I like the subject but discussing it in several places at the same time saying the same things, is simply not fun.

Oligarf, I know that there are other threads discussing why America should not be included in Civ III. Creating this thread with a heading SUPPORTIVE of America was my intention.

Anyhow, has anyone done the math on the turns yet? I'd be very curious to see that. Maybe a comparison with the five countries I talked about earlier: America, England, France, China, and Egypt.

[siredgar]

Partly, not entirely, Big Crunch.

Of course, American foreign policy and its general sentiment of self-importance are also reasons for European resentment. But I didn't want to get into that. It's really that whoever is at the top is always going to be criticized against. I've noticed that the English are particularly critical. I wonder if that has anything to do with that America was a colony of England and now it has England in its pocket (especially for foreign policy), hmmm?

[Dauphin]

I've noticed that the English are particularly critical. I wonder if that has anything to do with that America was a colony of England and now it has England in its pocket (especially for foreign policy), hmmm

Former colony status has little if anything to do with it, IMHO. However common bonds such as language and general cultural tendencies means that the US and Britain are closer than most other nations - and the most critical people are usually your closest friends.

Besides, the English have a nack of criticising everyone and demoting the acheivements of everyone, especially themsleves.

It's really that whoever is at the top is always going to be criticized against.

That is by far the main reason for US bashing IMO. If America had been around 1,000 years the feeling would still be the same.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by YefeiPi
I don't know, but when I think of America, distinctive culture does not come to mind.

No doubt he typed this while wearing blue jeans, eating a Big Mac, and possibly even listening to rock and roll. Cheers.