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**Trifna** · November 13, 2001, 05:18

Portuguese in Spain

Portuguese can be too easily included in the Spanish civ. Before dividing Portuguese from Spanish, I think we should put lots of other civilisations.

**Zealot** · November 13, 2001, 05:53

Re: Portuguese in Spain

Originally posted by Trifna
Portuguese can be too easily included in the Spanish civ. Before dividing Portuguese from Spanish, I think we should put lots of other civilisations.

Jesus Crist! No wonder you're an International renowned idiot!

Trifna, if that was realistic, then the portuguese language wouldn't be the 7th most spoken in the world! Still today, the portuguese culture is really strong in many aspects, such as the devotion to religion, gastronomy and poetry, etc!

**Jay Bee** · November 13, 2001, 06:00

At it's peak, Spain included Portugal. Without Portugal, the Spanish empire would have not been the first one in which the sun never set (sentence ripped off by the British a few centuries later). Nevertheless I agree that the term Spanish does not mean today what it used to in the Middle Ages/Renaissance. Thus a civilization containing both the Spanish and the Portuguese would have to be called Iberian. I actually have been supporting that idea for long

**JayKay** · November 13, 2001, 10:28

Originally posted by Jay Bee
At it's peak, Spain included Portugal. Without Portugal, the Spanish empire would have not been the first one in which the sun never set (sentence ripped off by the British a few centuries later). Nevertheless I agree that the term Spanish does not mean today what it used to in the Middle Ages/Renaissance. Thus a civilization containing both the Spanish and the Portuguese would have to be called Iberian. I actually have been supporting that idea for long

I agree with the ideia of "Iberian civilization" in a matter of pure simplification, but never the Portuguese can be included in Spain (nor vice-versa), because Portugal wasn't a part of Spain for that long, so i don't think it would be historicaly accurante to include Portugal in Spain, even because the cultures of the two nations are very different!

If you recall, Portugal was part of Spain because the Portuguese King D. Sebastião died in Ceuta fighting the "infidels", leaving no descendacy! Because of that, Portugal went to Spain dominance, but not for our choice, but by force, because the next line in the Portuguese throne was the King of Spain!

Also, if you recall, a few years later under the Spanish dominance, the Portuguese people revolted against it, putting in the throne the King D. João I, starting a new dynasty called "dynasty of Avis" and ending the Spanish dominance in Portuguese territory!

So....as you see, the Spanish dominance was short and unwelcome! So including Portugal in Spain is the same thing that including France in England - meaning pure nonsense!

BTW, Zealot, you should include Guimarães in your portuguese city list, since it was the first Capital of Portugal during lots of years, until the conquest of Lisboa from the "infidels"!

_________________________________________________

Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

**Zealot** · November 13, 2001, 10:46

JayKay... huh... king John I was from the Avis family, but he was the 1st king of the second dynasty. Since the spanish occupation was from 1600 to 1640, under the Philips, and were the third dynasty, John I couldn't possibly succeed the spanish.

It was indeed a John. But it was John IV, Duque of Bragança.

But I agree with everything else!

Guimarães added. But Lisboa should be the capital. BTW, what should be the portuguese unique unit?

**JayKay** · November 13, 2001, 11:13

Originally posted by Zealot
JayKay... huh... king John I was from the Avis family, but he was the 1st king of the second dynasty. Since the spanish occupation was from 1600 to 1640, under the Philips, and were the third dynasty, John I couldn't possibly succeed the spanish.

It was indeed a John. But it was John IV, Duque of Bragança.

Well...i might be mistaken in that part! sorry!

Guimarães added. But Lisboa should be the capital.

Yes...of course Lisboa should be the capital! I didn't say Guimarães should be the Capital, i just said that Guimarães should be added, because it had an important place in the history of our country! I'm glad you agree with me!

BTW, what should be the portuguese unique unit?

Well....i think it should be the "Nau"! A kind of Caravel, but faster! What do you think?

BTW, about the leader - why King John II? Why not King Afonso Henriques? (Just curious)

_________________________________________________

Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

**Zealot** · November 13, 2001, 11:59

Originally posted by JayKay
BTW, about the leader - why King John II? Why not King Afonso Henriques? (Just curious)

Because it was King John II who argued with the pope that the portuguese "sphere" in the Tordesilles treaty should have 100 extra miles to the west. The pope agreed, the spanish agreed, and the portuguese later found that inside those extra 100 miles there was land. That land is now called Brazil.

How did he know that there was land there, if the maritime path to India wasn't discovered yet? That's one of history's misteries...

John II was also the king who gave a boost in discoveries, continuing the work of Infant Henrique. And I think it was John II who was in the throne when Vasco da Gama arrived at India.

The former portuguese empire owes a lot to this king.

**JayKay** · November 13, 2001, 12:08

Originally posted by Zealot

Because it was King John II who argued with the pope that the portuguese "sphere" in the Tordesilles treaty should have 100 extra miles to the west. The pope agreed, the spanish agreed, and the portuguese later found that inside those extra 100 miles there was land. That land is now called Brazil.

How did he know that there was land there, if the maritime path to India wasn't discovered yet? That's one of history's misteries...

John II was also the king who gave a boost in discoveries, continuing the work of Infant Henrique. And I think it was John II who was in the throne when Vasco da Gama arrived at India.

The former portuguese empire owes a lot to this king.

Agreed!!

BTW, You didn't answer my special unit suggestion!

_________________________________________________

Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

**Zealot** · November 13, 2001, 12:34

Originally posted by JayKay
BTW, You didn't answer my special unit suggestion!

I kinda like it. But the problem is that the way Civ 3 is designed, the golden age is only triggered when your special unit wins its first battle. And a "Nau" is a commerce ship. It was used before cannons were implemented on ships. And before pirates appeard. So we can have a dillema here...

**JayKay** · November 13, 2001, 12:49

Originally posted by Zealot

I kinda like it. But the problem is that the way Civ 3 is designed, the golden age is only triggered when your special unit wins its first battle. And a "Nau" is a commerce ship. It was used before cannons were implemented on ships. And before pirates appeard. So we can have a dillema here...

Hmmm....yeah....i forgot that!

Well...maybe a Crusader - a mounted unit like the Knight, but with a better attack strenght (+1)!! What do you think?
_________________________________________________

Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

**Trifna** · November 13, 2001, 13:11

Re: Re: Portuguese in Spain

Originally posted by Zealot

Jesus Crist! No wonder you're an International renowned idiot!

Trifna, if that was realistic, then the portuguese language wouldn't be the 7th most spoken in the world! Still today, the portuguese culture is really strong in many aspects, such as the devotion to religion, gastronomy and poetry, etc!

Let go your sarcasm you *** I even have portuguese in my family! I would pass myself from this...

I said portugueses were culturally included through Spanish. Spanish and Portugueses are very similar, culturally. That's why I put them under the same banner, even if they are divided into two conquering countries.

**Zealot** · November 13, 2001, 13:46

Portuguese special unit

I found the perfect special unit!

The "Knight of Christ", who were part of the Order of Christ (who were previously known as Templars) and helped King Afonso V to conquer a big part of north africa and his trading cities from the moors!

I found historical basis in here:

http://www.thornr.demon.co.uk/kchrist/overview.html

In Civ 3 I sugest an extra defense point from the regular Knight. But I will check Civilopedia to think if this is balanced.

**JayKay** · November 13, 2001, 13:51

Re: Re: Re: Portuguese in Spain

Originally posted by Trifna

Let go your sarcasm you *** I even have portuguese in my family! I would pass myself from this...

I said portugueses were culturally included through Spanish. Spanish and Portugueses are very similar, culturally. That's why I put them under the same banner, even if they are divided into two conquering countries.

If you have protuguese in your family, then or you doesn't know them or you doesn't know Spain, because Spanish and Portuguese cultural are very, very different! Have you ever tried Portuguese and Spanish gastronomy? I think not!

Of course we have our similarities (we are neighbours), but we are culturally totally diferent!

_________________________________________________

Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

**Jay Bee** · November 13, 2001, 14:16

Sorry Jay Kay, I can't agree. No matter how you look at it, Spain and Portugal are definitely very close culture-wise. Many things differentiate them, but many others link them together as well. That in the eyes of non-Iberians these similarities are more evident than the differences should be quite revealing. After all, Portugal and Spain share 2300 years of common history, you can't get pass that

. We are definitely part of the same civilization. Imho that's our strength. That's what I was trying to highlight in my previous posting above.

PS. About your gastronomy example I bet that Castilian and Galician cuisines are much closer to the Portuguese than to the Basque and Andalusian

PPS. We can have Lisboa as the Iberian civ, I don't mind

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Expansion Pack Civs Explained: Portuguese

Expansion Pack Civs Explained: Portuguese

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