Expansion Pack Civ explained: Celts

[Dinner]

Everyone: I'm glad to see the debate has picked up a bit. I'm going to give a few more days so that people can vote and express their views on the unique unit then we'll count everything up and go with the most popular choice.

Molly: You make a good point about the expansion attribute and it is true that pre-Roman Celtic culture did a great deal of expanding (most of this was a result of the Celts being the first civ in Europe to develop iron working), however, the last 2000 years of history for the Celts has been one of continous shrinking of cultural boudries and not expansion. In the last 500 years Celtic cultures/languages in both Turkey and Spain have gone extinct leaving only small enclaves in Ireland, Britain, & France.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Oerdin

Molly: You make a good point about the expansion attribute and it is true that pre-Roman Celtic culture did a great deal of expanding (most of this was a result of the Celts being the first civ in Europe to develop iron working), however, the last 2000 years of history for the Celts has been one of continous shrinking of cultural boudries and not expansion. In the last 500 years Celtic cultures/languages in both Turkey and Spain have gone extinct leaving only small enclaves in Ireland, Britain, & France.

Although the Celtic languages of Galatia and Galicia are no longer with us, and the Celts of Western Europe were pushed to the bitter margins, I don't believe that the outlook is quite as bleak as you might think. If you consider the Celtic disapora as a reaction/antidote to the oppression of Celtic languages and culture, then we would have to look beyond the boundaries of Europe to the greater worldview, and we would find a revival in Celtic culture, music, art, crafts, language, in a way that would have been quite unexpected at the beginning of the 19th Century. There are flourishing Celtic revivals in Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the United States, and if one includes the Celtic input into the expansion of the British Empire and the United States, then the Celts are definitely biting back....
Cornish is being revived, as is Manx, and Welsh language church services can be heard in sunny Melbourne, and Cornish Games and Gorsedds are held in South Australia and Victoria. There are Welsh speaking settlements in Argentina, and Gaelic speaking communities in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, and American Bretons too. Not to mention the influence of the Irish on American politics and history...

[Lenius]

WOW very cool thread!!!

I personally was gutted that us Celts didn't make the Civ3 cut (being a Welshman). It amazes me that a one of the most influential people in the worlds history were left out when other lesser known civs got in (not naming any names).

Anyhow he's my opinions on what the Celtic Civ should consist of: (it also depends on how you view the Celts e.g. ancient continental european Celts or more modern Briton Celts so i've split them into two sections)

Continental Celt Style:

Overall Leader - My knowledge on Celtic leaders on the continent isn't too good so i'll leave that too someone else

Attributes:

Expansionist - They would have too be really considering they nearly spread as far and wide as the Roman Empire.

Commercial - Trade was very important to the ancient Celts as it seems they traded with the Greeks and Romans.

Special Unit - It HAS to be the Horseman. On all ancient Celtic History programs they always took apart how important horses were too the Celts and thats how they managed to expand so far away from the russian steppes.

So stats wise I would give us Celts an Upgraded Horsemen with +1 movement to show how they used them for expansion purposes.


Briton Celts

Overall Leader - It's got to be the most famous Arthur (the only other one I would consider is Owain Glyndwr as he's my personal hero)

Attributes:

Religous: The Briton Celts certainly would be, christianity spread quick and fast through our people also where very fond of myth and mythology eg Mabinogion, also the irish have similar tomes.

The second attribute is much harder to decide upon so i would leave open too discusion.

Special Unit - It would probably have to be the Woad/Celtic warrior with upgraded stats of the swordsman.

Ethier that or the famed Welsh Longbowman which led to the downfall of the knight Class perhaps it could be a 5-1-1.

On the whole i believe the Celtic Civ should be an amalgam of the two.

Arthur as Overall Leader, Religion and Expansionist as Attributes, Upgraded Horseman as Special Unit and mixture of city names from the continent and Briton in Celtic spelling.

[Dinner]

Has everyne who is going to vote already voted?

[Paul Saunders]

Sorry I'm a bit late in discovering this thread, but being a Celt myself I feel I have something to say about this.

Firstly I'd vote for the Celts being religious and expansionist, after all, they built many religious monuments and tombs and covered a hell of a lot of ground.

King Arthur is the logical choice of leader, he's easily the most well-known and symbolic leader - the King of the Britons.

Unique unit? I'd vote for that fast horse thingy, that would tie in well with the expansionist trait, although the Welsh were well known for their longbow skills so the archer would be my second choice.

I found this on the web; "The so-called "English" longbow, instrumental to the victory at the battle of Agincourt in 1415, was first recorded as being used by the Welsh in 633 AD, when Offrid, the son of Edwin king of Northumbria was killed by an arrow fired from a Welsh longbow during a battle between the Welsh and the Mercians, more than five centuries before any record of its military use in England."

My main points concern the city list though, I'm not happy with it at all, many of the places are not Celtic at all, but simply Celtic names for places with different origins.

Yes there are a lot of places beginning with Llan and Aber. That's because there are. Aber means the mouth of a river or the confluence of two rivers, ideal sites for cities, and Llan means church, which many settlements were built around.

Capital: La Tene - don't know about this.

City list:
Tintagel - okay
Llundain (London) - this was a Roman settlement!
Caer Baddon (Bath) - another well-known Roman settlement
Rhydychen (Oxford) - just a Welsh name for an English town
Caergrawnt (Cambridge) - English
Caeredin (Edinbrugh) - surely Edinburgh (correct spelling) would be the correct name (is it gaelic?)
Catraeth (Catterick) - ?
Caerloyw (Gloucester) - Roman (Caer means fort)
Caerdydd (Cardiff) - Roman
Ty Ddewi (St Davids) - okay
Aberteifi (Cardigan) - okay
Bangor - okay
Caernarfon - another Roman fort
Casnewydd (Newport) - ?
Y Trallwng (Shrewsbury) - English
Galatia, Numantia, Kells, Armagh - ?
Caerphilly - another fort
Cork -?
Iona, Illauntanig, Durrow, Tara - ?
Dinas Powys, Rhayader, Abergavenny, Llanelli, Maesteg - okay
Dinas Emerys - should be spelt Dinas Emrys
Llangollen - very good, important site.

Rhymney, Rhondda, Merthyr - these are all modern settlements built in the industrial era, with many non-Welsh incomers moving into the area. The names may be Welsh but many of the people living there weren't.

Castell Nedd (Neath) - Not sure about this, castell means castle and the Welsh rarely built castles, they were usually built by the English invaders.

Abertawe (Swansea) - Although the Welsh name sounds good, Swansea derives from Sweyne's Eye (island). It's actually a Viking settlement, and I should know, because I live there.

Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen) - this one is interesting. Although it's a Roman fort, Fyrddin (mutated from Myrddin) means Merlin, so it actually means "Merlin's Fort". There are a lot of Merlin legends associated with the town, and we all know who Merlin was, don't we? I'd suggest that Caerfyrddin is quite important to the Celts, it's certainly built in an important location. It was probably there before the Romans arrived.

Aberystwyth - I'd single this one out for special treatment. Although only a small town, for a long time it was the capital of Wales, being located in the very centre of Wales on the coast. A much more worthy capital than Caerdydd, and truly Welsh too. I'd vote for this as the capital (with Caerfyrddin as the second city).

I couldn't find any pre-Roman town names, but here are some real Welsh names from after the Romans left, all important early religious sites;

Llandaff, Llandeilo, Llanbadarn, Tywyn, Clynnog, Abergele, Llangurig, Raglan, Llandegfedd. Also Llandovery, Llanwrtyd Wells, Builth Wells and Llandrindod Wells.

A few more selected truly Welsh place names, avoiding the usual Abers and Llans;

Dolwyddelan - site of one the few Welsh castles
Beddgelert - Gelert's Grave
Porthmadog - Madog's Port
Harlech - used by Owain Glyndwr as his capital and made famous in the song "Men of Harlech" after the defenders survived a seige for eight years.

http://www.castlewales.com/harlech.html

Talley - site of an abbey
Pumsaint
Blaenau Ffestiniog
Betws-y-coed
Dolgellau
Machynlleth
Pontrhydfendigaid
Penmaenmawr
Bala
Amlwch

And not forgetting the legendary;

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychrwyndrobwchllantisilio gogogoch!

(Usually shortened to Llanfairpwll)

Paul

[History Guy]

Hmmm...something reminds me of David McCauley's 'Roman City' film...the Celtic chieftain guy saying "The Druids are a thing of the past! They hide in the woods and pray to trees!"

In later years, during the rise of the Roman Empire (the period of Caesar and old Vercing.) the Celts and the Gauls seemed to have some distaste for the Druids, who came to be more and more alien to them. Of course this is probably due to the Roman influence, but it was starting before the Roman attack.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Paul Saunders

Firstly I'd vote for the Celts being religious and expansionist, after all, they built many religious monuments and tombs and covered a hell of a lot of ground.

King Arthur is the logical choice of leader, he's easily the most well-known and symbolic leader - the King of the Britons.

Llundain (London) - this was a Roman settlement!
Caer Baddon (Bath) - another well-known Roman settlement
fort
Cork -?
Paul

Cork-

'In the south of Ireland, the Vikings founded the first towns, such as Dublin, Waterford, Cork and Limerick. These towns became important trading centres, and the Ostmen (as they called themselves) began to play a part in the complex alliances and conflicts between the various Irish kingdoms.
St. Finbarr is the founder and patron saint. He founded a monastery in the seventh century where St. Finn Barre's Cathedral now stands, and it grew into an extensive and wealthy establishment. It attracted the attention of the Viking sea-pirates who raided and burned the infant city, but returned in later years to settle and trade. '

Viking placenames, Ireland and elsewhere:

http://viking.no/e/ireland/epl-irel.htm

London is named after Lug/h, the swift or bold Celtic god:

https://www.krysstal.com/londname.html

The Story of Lugh

Lugh was one of the principal gods of the Celts, and was honored over vast areas they inhabited, particularly in the western half of Europe. He is known alternately as Lugh of the Long Arm, or the Master of all Arts, and in some territories as a sun god. One of the four major festivals of the Celtic year was named after Lugh--Lughnasa on August 1. Many European cities began as Celtic centres named after Lugh. Lyons in France was once called Lugudunom, or "Stronghold of Lugh." Carlisle in England was called Luguvallium, "Strong in the God Lugh." Similar is Lugo in northwest Spain, in the region of once Celtic Galicia. Added are early Celtic settlements in Laon and Loudon in France, Leiden in the central part of the Netherlands, and Legnica in Poland, all who honored Lugh in their original namesakes.

Lugh's name varies depending on the locality, e.g., Lug, and on the continent Lugus, and in Wales Lleu. Although he was venerated in mainland Europe, to get a sense of his self and stories, one must rely on the insular Celtic myths of Ireland and Wales. The short sketch below attempts that approach, though there are a multitude of varying stories about him.

To start at the beginning, Lugh was the son of Cian and Ethniu, Cian being a member of the Irish pantheon of gods (called the Tuatha Dé Danann) and Ethniu the daughter of a Fomor giant. Lugh grew to be fair and tall, with yellow hair. Opponents would be nearly blinded by the brilliance of his countenance. Lugh wore a green mantle with a silver brooch, and he owned three priceless possessions. First was his sling, with which he was very skilled in use, earning his nickname "the Long Armed" for his marksmanship in combat. Second was his five-pointed spear that nearly came alive in battle, "tearing through the ranks of the enemy, never tired of slaying." Lugh's third treasured possession was his hound, marvelous for a number of reasons, including its ability to turn whole spring-waters into wine upon taking a dog-bath.

When he first arrived to take his place among the Irish pantheon, the other gods doubted Lugh's veracity. He reported to them his abilities as a champion, a harper, carpenter, smith, poet, druid, physician, bronze-worker, and cupbearer. Not believing him they put Lugh to the test. A challenge was made with the best chess player among the gods. Lugh defeated him, inventing along the way a new move called "Lugh's enclosure." He then lifted and moved an enormous rock, showing superior physical strength. Finally the gods asked him to play the harp, which he did with great ability, performing the three magic strains of sleep, sadness, and merriment. What the gods and goddesses realized, and in time grew to know all the much more, was that Lugh really was "the Master of all Arts," and this nickname too became his over the centuries.

Lugh's arrival at Tara was propitious. The Celtic gods were preparing for war with the Fomor giants. Recognizing Lugh's masterful abilities, the Tuatha Dé Danann's king Nuada lent the throne of the gods to Lugh for thirteen days to plan for the campaign. Lugh called for a council of the gods and heard each of them explain how their skills could contribute in defeating the Fomors. The gods and goddesses agreed to give the generalship of the conflict to Lugh.

Everything was leading up to the famous Battle of Magh Tuiredh, fought in County Sligo, near where the Fomor giants lived. After individual duel combats, a large pitched battle broke out between the gods and the giants. At first the council of gods tried to hold Lugh out of the battle (guarding him with nine warriors), because he was deemed too valuable to risk. But Lugh escaped, and led on the charge. In the heat of battle, a particularly awful Fomor named Balor killed Nuada, the king of the gods. Lugh then shouted a challenge to Balor in vengeance. Balor had a baleful evil eye that was usually shut, but could kill anyone who saw it. Balor said to his Fomor attendant: "Lift up my eyelid that I may see this chatterer who talks to me."

When the eyelid was just half lifted, Lugh used his skills with the sling, and flung a magic stone into Balor's eye, killing him on the spot. The fortunes of the battle turned immediately to the gods' favor. The Fomors wavered, and the gods pinned down a victory, going on to rule Ireland for an era. Lugh himself became king of the Irish gods for a time after the death of Nuada, and later fathered the Celtic hero Cuchulainn.

The Welsh counterpart to Lugh is Lleu of the Dexterous Hand. He was the son of the goddess Arianrod, and reared by the god Gwydion. For a number of reasons, Arianrod denied Lleu a wife, so through magic Gwydion made him a woman made of blossoms. Her name became Blodeuwedd (Flower Face), and "she was the fairest and most graceful that man ever saw." Lleu and Blodeuwedd lived in a palace in Wales, and had many adventures, which we will recount in future articles.

Article by John Patrick Parle

Celtic religion/s:

''Experts on the Celts are quick to point out that the religious practices and the homaged Celtic deities were not consistent throughout the vast territories populated by the Celts. Indeed, the gods of the ancient Celts were often localized deities of the tribe or the geographic region. Gerhard Herm quotes Celtic researchers in reporting that some 374 names of Celtic deities have been identified in Europe, and that only sixty-nine of these appear in more than one geographic area. This claim is bolstered by Barry Cunliffe who asserts that although there were more than 200 Celtic gods and goddesses, their recognition was not consistent or unchanging across Europe.
The Celtic gods had much to do with nature and its cycles, especially in the earlier periods of Celtic history, before human characteristics were deified. Gods and goddesses were often connected with sacred springs, rivers, groves, or tribal shrines in the outdoors. Celts approached their gods for help with healings, fertility, bountiful crops, and other forms of good fortune. Julius Caesar commented that the Celts were "superstitious," and that they offered many sacrifices and amends for justice to appease their gods.
Most likely, the mainland Celts did not give human form to their gods and goddesses until later in the Iron Age, perhaps in the first or second century B.C. According to Simon James, only a few religious statues have been found dating to the early Celtic period. Then there is an interesting story about the Celts' attack on Delphi, Greece in 279 B.C. Diodorus Siculus reports that the Celtic leader Brennus the Younger mocked statues of the Greek gods at the temple--"when he came only upon images of stone and wood he laughed at them, to think that men, believing that gods had human form, should set up their image in wood and stone." '

It was more a nature religion than one centred on buildings/monuments.

[History Guy]

Though London was built over a Celtic site, the name has nothing to do with the Celts. Londinum was one of the sites Claudius established after conquering Britain. The other site was at Colchester, but I can not recall what the original name was at the moment.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by History Guy
Though London was built over a Celtic site, the name has nothing to do with the Celts.

Ahem-

'The site is also connected with the King Lud, who gave his name to the present day Ludgate Circus and Ludgate Hill, on on which St. Paul's Cathedral stands. Heli (Beli Mawr in the Welsh) in about the year 113 BC. Lud, the son of Heli (Beli Mawr), became King in 73 BC. Lud rebuilt the city of London that King Brutus had founded and had named New Troy, and renamed it Caerlud, the city of Lud, after his own name. The name of the city was later corrupted to Caerlundein, which the Romans took up as Londinium, hence London. At his death, Lud was buried in an entrance to the city that still bears his name, Ludgate. My intuition tells me that Ludgate Hill was a sacred site for the Celts, probably because of it's connections with Brutus and Lud. '

Hence:

Many European cities began as Celtic centres named after Lugh. Lyons in France was once called Lugudunom, or "Stronghold of Lugh." Carlisle in England was called Luguvallium, "Strong in the God Lugh." Similar is Lugo in northwest Spain, in the region of once Celtic Galicia. Added are early Celtic settlements in Laon and Loudon in France, Leiden in the central part of the Netherlands, and Legnica in Poland, all who honored Lugh in their original namesakes.

and:

'London The meaning of 'London' is obscure, but is often explained as 'the place belonging to a man called Londinos (Celtic personal name)'. Londinos was Latinised by the Romans and became Londinium. '

[Tolls]

Sorry, molly, but Geoffrey of Monmouth's legends for the founding of London really aren't something to take as historically accurate...suffice to say that there is no real evidence for where the name came from, whether a hill, farm, village, etc.

If Julius forded the Thames where people think he forded the Thames (at Westminster) then it seems that there was nothing of pre-Roman London to note in 54BC, and Londinium was founded on a fairly clean slate.

[Myrddin]

There is really little evidence for many pre-Roman towns in Britain, but the period to focus on is probably post-roman, pre-Saxon.

This gives a suitable leader - Arthur (whoever he was) and enough settlements/history/legends/etc

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Tolls
Sorry, molly, but Geoffrey of Monmouth's legends for the founding of London really aren't something to take as historically accurate...suffice to say that there is no real evidence for where the name came from, whether a hill, farm, village, etc.

I'm sorry I gave the wrong impression- the quote from Geoffrey of Monmouth is meant to show the persistence of the association with the god Lug/h- remember also how the Celtic finds from the River Thames revealed its sacred aspect to the Celts- the naming of the place isn't meant to imply a Celtic settlement, but the origin of the placename with Celtic tradition, and its importance as a water shrine:

https://www.antipope.org/feorag/wells/hope/cornwall.html

https://www.stmarysbattersea.btinternet.co.uk/history/history_battersea.htm

https://www.unc.edu/courses/art111/celtic/images/216701.html

'Ludgvan, Ludjan, Ludowanus, Ludwan, Ludan' all varieties of modern day Ludgvan in Cornwall, attributed to the Cornish Celtic saint 'Ludowanus', most likely associated with Lug/h, then Christianized.

[Dinner]

I thought I was pretty knowledgable about this sort of stuff but you guys have just blown me away. This is some incredable history/folklore.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I thought I was pretty knowledgable about this sort of stuff but you guys have just blown me away. This is some incredable history/folklore.

The problem for many people with an interest in the Celts, who do not live in a country or region with a Celt friendly government (Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Brittany) is that the Celts, although the first pan-European civilization, are frequently overlooked for the Romans. Given the identification of later empires/nation states with the Romans, whether through emulation of culture, political system, language, this is not terribly surprising. Even in countries such as Scotland, there has been a divergence between the south looking Lowland dwelling Scots and the Gaelic speaking Scots of the Highlands and Islands.

Even as recently as the sixties and seventies in Britain it was common to find histories of the Isles that routinely assumed history began with the Romans, and which allotted a brief mention to those barbaric Celts. Given that the Celts passed on the use of soap to the Romans, did not have the institution of the gladiatorial arena, allowed that women had rights a Roman woman would not routinely have, and seem to have eschewed crucifixion as a method of punishment, barbarity is all relative I suppose....

[Ralendil]

Originally posted by Rasbelin


Ah, finally someone who understands Celts.

I would also suggest Vercingetorix or Cunobelin.
Especially Vercingetorix was a good warlord;
almost won Caesar's mighty legion in Alesia.

*the Celtic warlord Rasbelin is recalling the old good times*

Vercingetorix? he was from Gaul not a Celt...