Expansion Pack Civ explained: Celts

[Dinner]

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[Risky]

Re: 1st revision of Celtic Civ

Originally posted by Oerdin
City list: Kells, Armagh, Cork,

Can anyone think of anything that should be changed or added?

I think a couple of irish cities could go up with gaelic names. Unforturately I do not have the language so from looking at (municipal) website I have Chorcaí (Cork) and Galway(Gaillimh). In honour of my partents! If someone else can help out here as I cannot find a decent list of pre-anglicised town names.

[Dinner]

Re: Re: 1st revision of Celtic Civ

Originally posted by Risky
I think a couple of irish cities could go up with gaelic names. Unforturately I do not have the language so from looking at (municipal) website I have Chorcaí (Cork) and Galway(Gaillimh). In honour of my partents! If someone else can help out here as I cannot find a decent list of pre-anglicised town names.

Thanks Risky we'll change the names to Chorcai (Cork) & Gaillimh (Galway).

Now that we have our city list nearly complete I think we should begin to talk about our unique unit. Julius Ceaser wrote about Celtic warriors who armed themselves with broadswords (and sometimes wooden shields bonded with iron bands) who ran into battle naked. The Celts would cover themselves from head to toe with a thick layer of lye; this would make them appear ghostly white and it made hair spike straight up. Ceaser said several Roman soldiers and many of his local conscripts ran in fear of these fearless ghastly white warriors who feared no death.

Does anyone have any other ideas for a Celtic unique unit? We also have to come up with a name for our new Celtic warrior. In Age of Empires they were called Woad warriors but I think it would be better if we didn't ripe off that name from Mircosoft.
Also we could use a picture or drawing of our unique unit so if anyone out there is an artist please feel free to speak up now. It's been great work guys let's keep it up.

[molly bloom]

Re: Re: Re: 1st revision of Celtic Civ

Originally posted by Oerdin

Does anyone have any other ideas for a Celtic unique unit? We also have to come up with a name for our new Celtic warrior.

It may be an opportunity to use a female military unit, in memory of Boudicca and Cartimandua:

https://www.lothene.demon.co.uk/others/womenrom.html

https://www.unc.edu/~bottaro/chariot.html

https://www.umich.edu/~classics/cc/375/

and:

"On another occasion the Romans experienced a new form of noisy warfare: 'for standing up in chariots and wagons, the armed enemies came at them with the great noise of hooves and wheels so that the unfamiliar din terrified the horses of the Romans.' There was also the noise of trumpets. At the battle of Telamon the number of trumpeters and horn blowers was incalculable. Diodorus Siculus says they had trumpets peculiar to barbarians: 'for when they blow upon them, they produce a harsh sound, suitable to the tumult of war.' The Gauls also had their shouts of victory and triumph. 'They shouted "Victory, Victory" in their customary fashion and raised their yell of triumph (Ululatus)', and at Alesia 'they encouraged their men with shouts of triumph (Clamore et Ululatu)'. There are several representations of Celtic trumpets on classical sculpture, most notably at Pergamon in Asia Minor, and on the triumphal arch at Orange in southern France, and a few fragments of actual trumpets have survived."

from:www.ealaghol.demon.co.uk/celtenc/celt_c3.htm

It is interesting to see that the Greeks also mention warriors equipped with long slashing swords, who are mounted on horseback, when first they encounter the Celts.

[LordLynch64]

Celtic special unit

I would say for a celtic special unit, a War chariot they were used quite often in war. But I would give them more of a knight type stat because they were the elite units in the Celt army I would say like a 4-2-3 something like that. They would be made availble with Iron working and lets say Monarchy because the Chariot warrior was usually Nobility.

Or a beserker warrior of some sort to represent the fearsome celtic warrior all tatooed up and naked. give him like sowrdsman stat with bonus to movement.

or we could do a naval ship the celtic tribe called the venetti were accomplished sailers according to Caesar.

I also think the attributes should be religious and either expansionistic or militaristic. For as much as the celts were dominated by the Romans in their twilight years they were a warrior society. From dinner to dance to their religion to their commercial dealings with other civs they were warriors.

As far as celtic wonders.
Newgrange thats a hudge earth work it could have a similar effect the oracle does.

we could do some of their earth mounds they had hudge mounds in the shape of hourses to men armed with spears.

we could do the book of Kells thats kind of a Irish Celtic contribution to the world.

Well sorry if my writing sucks just thought i'd add my 2 cents.

[Dinner]

Ok folks here is a compilation of the prospective Celtic UUs.

1. Beserker/Waod Warrior- a broad sword welding warrior that is tatooed, naked, covered in white lye, and screaming his lungs out.

2. Trumpeter- a warrior similiar to #1 but who would be carrying a trupet or war horn or something.

3. War Chariot- Boudiccia road into battle on the back of a war chariot and had an Archer fire arrows at the Romans who got to close so this would also be historically accurate. I am a little worried that this might be a bit to close to the Eygptian UU though....

4. Venetti- an early sea ship like the one Ceaser described on his journey to Britain.

So now we have to decid which of these four to use and exactly what their +1 bonus would go to (plus what resources would it take to build them). Everyone feel free to vote for their favorite.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Oerdin

So now we have to decid which of these four to use and exactly what their +1 bonus would go to (plus what resources would it take to build them). Everyone feel free to vote for their favorite.

I plump for chariot; iron and horses should be the resources, as the texts I have studied mention the difference between the bronze and iron ages in Celtic culture, with a more 'vigorous' iron- using caste developing. A spear thrower in the chariot, rather than an archer though. I did wonder if the Celts ever used an 'armored' wagon like the Taborites, but haven't yet found mention of it in the books I have read...

https://www.intop.net/~jhollis/janzizka.htm

https://www.factmonster.com/ce6/society/A0858715.html

[Hywel Dda]

My feeling is for the painted Beserker/warrior, which presumably should have an attack advantage.

Religious, militaristic seems right, though it's a pity that you can't give a specific "Cultural" boost in CivIII, since many celtic nations are heavily into music or poetry.

[Dinner]

I think I will use my one vote for the Bererker/warrior as well. He should be a swordsman with either a +1 to attack or movement and require iron to build. Also he should be upgradable to the next age's unit.

[Wulfram]

I'd suggest a Chariot with +1 defense or move as chariots are the most distinctive Celt unit IMO. Most other Civs would have had Beserker type troops and the Germans (or vikings) would be a better choice as Germanic tribes (Like the Vikings, Saxons or the assorted Barbarians who caused such a problem for the romans) are most known for them.

[Hywel Dda]

Thanks for your support over the warrior, Oerdin, but I could certainly live with a chariot, Wulfram, in which case Boudicca would seem like a good leader for the Civ, since it is she that the chariot is associated with.

The warriors impressed the Romans earlier on, though, for their fearless "do-or-die" attitude (but in the end they mainly died, of course )

[molly bloom]

I feel the characteristics of the Celts should be mercantile and expansionist; my reasoning being based on the great efforts made to secure expensive luxury goods, from the more settled urbanized Mediterranean civilizations, such as the Greeks and the Etruscans, as shown by the quantities of high grade artefacts found in Celt burials, kraters, dishes, vases, jewellery and other ornaments, and the importance gift-giving played amongst the upper echelons of Celt societies, and within tribal groups. Also, the initial base for Celtic expansionism given by control of the long salt trade routes, and also tin/fur/gold trading with the Phoenicians. The expansionist part is, I suppose, reasonably self-explanatory, given the spread from some still unknown trans-Uralic/steppe starting point to the shores of the Atlantic, and the later peregrinations of Irish Celtic missionaries to Sweden, Italy, Switzerland and barren hermitages in the Blasket Isles and Iceland. And of course, St. Brendan's semi-mythic voyage to America....

[Dinner]

We discussed the CSA earlier in the thread and I think we settled on Religious and Commercial. Religious because of the influence the Druids had in Celtic society and because their religion and language were the great unifing forces in their culture. Commercial was thought fitting because of the vast trade net works the celts established and maintained throughout northern Europe. It's still open for discusion but I think militaristic doesn't fit as well because the Celts just weren't as successful at waging war as the Greeks or Romans were.

The Chariot would fit well with th historical Celtic way of waging war, however, I am concerned that this "unique unit" won't be very unique since the Egyptians already have chariots. Just my two cents...

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Oerdin
We discussed the CSA earlier in the thread and I think we settled on Religious and Commercial. Religious because of the influence the Druids had in Celtic society and because their religion and language were the great unifing forces in their culture. Commercial was thought fitting because of the vast trade net works the celts established and maintained throughout northern Europe. It's still open for discusion but I think militaristic doesn't fit as well because the Celts just weren't as successful at waging war as the Greeks or Romans were.

The Chariot would fit well with th historical Celtic way of waging war, however, I am concerned that this "unique unit" won't be very unique since the Egyptians already have chariots. Just my two cents...

I agree with you about the militaristic aspect; to me, militaristic implies just that, a society, or a large part of society, dedicated to martial aspects, such as the Spartans, Prussian Junkers, Samurai, Aztec Jaguar warriors, not simply people who enjoy having a good scrap occasionally.
As regards Celtic/Druidic religion....unfortunately because of the priestly prohibition on written communication of religious practices, what we actually know about the Celts' religion/s is sieved through a variety of sources, hardly any of them purely Celtic. Whilst not wishing to downplay the importance of religion to the Celts, I don't believe that it was important enough to be distinguished from say, the Romans' or Greeks' approach to religion, given the meagre evidence we have. Although I am aware that gift-giving played a part in some rituals, and feel that the mercantilist aspect would account for that cultural strand in the Celts make-up:

https://www.conjure.com/whocelts.html

https://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/world/anceur/relwale5.htm

and:

'Goddesses and Gods: The Celts did not form a single religious or political unity. They were organized into tribes spread across what is now several countries. As a result, of the 374 Celtic deities which have been found, over 300 occur only once in the archeological record; they are believed to be local deities. There is some evidence that their main pantheon of Gods and Goddesses might have totaled about 3 dozen - perhaps precisely 33 (a frequently occurring magical number in Celtic literature). Some of the more famous are: Arawn, Brigid, Cernunnos, Cerridwen, Danu, Herne, Lugh, Rhiannon and Taranis. Many Celtic deities were worshipped in triune (triple aspect) form. Triple Goddesses were often sisters. '

Given that knowledge of Celtic religion/theology is fragmentary, I felt it better to go with what we actually know about the Celts, so I relied on the evidence of the grave sites and the Hallstatt site, and the great waves of migration, thus opting for the expansionist attribute.
With respect to the chariot- if it were given more durability/attack than the Egyptian chariot, would this serve to distinguish it sufficiently, especially if it were a female steering, or spear-throwing?

[Gromit]

[QUOTE]except that you end up with too many
Caer... (camp of...)
Aber.. (river mouth ..)
Llan.. (church of..)[QUOTE]

In that case we could look outside of Cymru
Irish Town/City names for example -
Dun Loaghaire, Ath Cliath (Dublin), Gallimh (Galway), Cobh (Cork) or some Scottish names

On the Unit note. I think a Scottish offensive unit, since they scared off the Romans. Hell, they even built a wall to keep 'em in.