About the American Civilization......

[static]

Originally posted by joseph1944

The innocence of youth. Because you are young I will forgive you for it. If you were my age and said that I would be very concerned. I worked for the US gov for 33 years 4 mo. 11 day, you watch every step they take and question every other step and you will survive. The first time you take your eyes off them watch out.

While I have been defending Clinton's record, I agree that there is ALOT that happens behind the scenes the general public doesn't know about. Ron Brown's plane crash, Clinton's dealing with China, etc.., HOWEVER, almost ever president and Civ leader has had various scandals also. Ceasar, Napolean, Mao, Alexander, etc., all have done terrible things, were they not 'great' leaders.

[Adrien]

Presidents

Well, in 1948, Arthur Schlesinger (A really famous historian dude. Ask your history teacher who he is) published a famous list of presidents, ranked by their achievements while in office.

He did it again in 1962. Here's the 1962 list.

Great
1. Lincoln
2. Washington
3. F. Roosevelt
4. Wilson
5. Jefferson
Near great
6. Jackson
7. T. Roosevelt
8. Polk / Truman (tie)
9. J. Adams
10. Cleveland

Average
11. Madison
12. J. Q. Adams
13. Hayes
14. McKinley
15. Taft
16. Van Buren
17. Monroe
18. Hoover
19. B. Harrison
20. Arthur / Eisenhower
21. A. Johnson

Below average
22. Taylor
23. Tyler
24. Fillmore
25. Coolidge
26. Pierce
27. Buchanan

Failure
28. Grant
29. Harding


I've been looking for the 1996 list, with no success just yet.

[Adrien]

Also, Reagan was an idiot.

"Yes! Let's build a missile defense system that violates the basic laws of physics! We'll use a giant laser to shoot down missiles! Never mind that laser light is diffracted in air, making it totally worthless for shooting down ANYTHING! I'm president, and I can do whatever I want!"


Congress can't repeal the laws of physics, much as they would like to.

It's basic high school science.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by saracen31
What war was Washington in office during?

True, he wasn't "in office" during the Revolutionary War, but was a great war leader & the first president.

Just thought I'd point that out.

[Transcend]

SDI didn't work, but Reagon had something to energize the nation and put pressure on the Soviets.

[joseph1944]

I received this on the Internet. An American talking about America.


Subject: FW: BAD AMERICAN

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001

Written by Ted Nugent, the rock singer and hunter/naturalists, upon
hearing that California Senators B. Boxer and D. Feinstein denounced him
for being a "gun owner" and a "Rock Star". This was his response after
telling the senators about his past contributions to children's charities
and scholarship foundations which have totaled more than $13.7 million in
the last 5 years!!

I'm a Bad American - this pretty much sums it up for me. I like big
trucks, big boats, big houses, and naturally, pretty women.

I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some midlevel
governmental functionary with a bad comb-over who wants to give it away to
crack addicts squirting out babies. I don't care about appearing
compassionate.

I think playing with toy guns doesn't make you a killer. I believe
ignoring your kids and giving them Prozac might.

I think I'm doing better than the homeless.

I don't think being a minority makes you noble or victimized. I have the
right not to be tolerant of others because they are different, weird or
make me mad. This is my life to live, and not necessarily up to others
expectations.

I know what SEX is and there are not varying degrees of it.

I don't celebrate Kwanzaa. But if you want to that's fine; I just don't
feel like everyone else should have to.

I believe that if you are selling me a Dairy Queen shake, a pack of
cigarettes, or hotel room you do it in English. As of matter of fact, if
you are an American citizen you should speak English. My uncles and
forefathers shouldn't have had to die in vain so you can leave the
countries you were born in to come disrespect ours, and make us bend to
your will. Get over it.

I think the cops have every right to shoot your sorry butt if you're
running from them after they tell you to stop. If you can't understand the
word 'freeze' or 'stop' in English, see the previous line.

I don't use the excuse "it's for the children" as a shield for unpopular
opinions or actions.

I know how to count votes and I feel much safer letting a machine with no
political affiliation do a recount when needed.

I know what the definition of lying is, and it isn't based on the word
"is" - ever.

I don't think just because you were not born in this country, you qualify
for any special loan programs, gov't sponsored bank loans, etc., so you
can open a hotel, 7-Eleven, trinket shop, or any thing else, while the
indigenous peoples can't get past a high school education because they
can't afford it.

I didn't take the initiative in inventing the Internet.

I thought the Taco Bell dog was funny.

I want them to bring back safe and sane fireworks.

I believe no one ever died because of something Ozzy Osbourne, Ice-T or
Marilyn Manson sang, but that doesn't mean I want to listen to that crap
from someone else's car when I'm stopped at a red light. But I respect
your right to.

I think that being a student doesn't give you any more enlightenment than
working at Blockbuster or Jack In The Box.

I don't want to eat or drink anything with the words light, lite or
fat-free on the package.

Our soldiers did not go to some foreign country and risk their lives in
vain and defend our Constitution so that decades later you can tell me
it's a living document ever changing and is open to interpretation. The
guys who wrote it were light years ahead of anyone today, and they meant
what they said - now leave the document alone, or there's going to be
trouble.

I don't hate the rich. I help the poor.

I know wrestling is fake.

I've never owned, or was a slave, and a large percentage of our
forefathers weren't wealthy enough to own one either. Please stop blaming
me because some prior white people were idiots - and remember, tons of
white, Indian, Chinese, and other races have been enslaved too - it was
wrong for every one of them.

I believe a self-righteous liberal Democrat with a cause is more dangerous
than a Hell's Angel with an attitude.

I want to know exactly which church is it where the "Reverend" Jessie
Jackson preaches; and, what exactly is his job function.

I own a gun, you can own a gun, and any red blooded American should be
allowed to own a gun, but if you use it in a crime, then you will serve
the time.

I think Bill Gates has every right to keep every penny he made and
continue to make more. If it makes you mad, then invent the next operating
system that's better and put your name on the building. Ask your buddy
that invented the Internet to help you.

I don't believe in hate crime legislation. Even suggesting it makes me
mad. You're telling me that someone who is a minority,gay, disabled,
another nationality, or otherwise different from the mainstream of this
country has more value as a human being that I do as a white male. If
someone kills anyone, I'd say that it's a hate crime. We don't need more
laws! Let's enforce the ones we already have.

I think turkey bacon, turkey beef, turkey fake anything sucks.

I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise a child-it takes a
parent with the guts to stand up to the kid and spank his butt and say
"NO!" when it's necessary to do so.

I'll admit that the only movie that ever made me cry was Ole Yeller.

I didn't realize Dr. Seuss was a genius until I had a kid.

I will not be frowned upon or be looked down upon or be made to keep
silent because I have these beliefs and opinions. I thought this country
allowed me that right. I will not conform or compromise just to keep from
hurting somebody's feelings. I'm neither angry nor disenfranchised, no
matter how desperately the mainstream media would like the world to
believe otherwise.

Yes, I guess by some people's definition, I may be a bad American. But
that's tough.

Ted Nugent

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by joseph1944
A friend of mine gave me a paper to read several year ago on Clinton and the people that worked around him in the early days, guess what they are all dead now. You cannot tell a tale if you are dead. A guy call someone and said I will be home in a few min. and then kills himself (Vince Foster), you tell me.

Ahh, the old conspiracy theory that Clinton killed off his enemy. It is a classic urban myth that has been debunked. See:

http://www.snopes2.com/inboxer/outrage/clinton.htm

But to get back on topic, Lincoln is a great choice for the American leader. Yes, there are other presidents who did a lot, but without Lincoln, the U.S. would not exist as we know it.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Eisenhower , He was perhaps our dumbest president ever, he makes G.W. Bush look like Einstein.

JFK was a good president, Apollo Program was his idea and many thought he was crazy at the time. Leadership during the Cuban missile crisis, and of course, banging Marilyn Monroe (I guess I have a one track mind).

Clinton was ranked mid-pack because is was still in office, 50 years from now I think they will rank him in the top five.

Yes Eisenhower! Considered one of the better Presidents. Especially for his pushing of the Interstate Highway Act and the way he acted in foriegn policy with the Soviets. He is unversally praised with realising that nukes give you more bang for the buck and relying on MAD. Also he warned us about the Military-Industrial Complex.

JFK was utterly worthless. He had no idea what he was doing in office. He may have been a relatively smart guy (though the only reason he went to Harvard is because of Pop). The Apollo Program, IIRC, was originally concieved during the Eisenhower Administration. For the Cuban Missile Crisis, did you also factor in his utter failure during the Bay of Pigs?

Clinton was not in office when ranked. And 50 years from now, I wouldn't be suprised if he was ranked LOWER. He reminds me of Warren G. Harding. A popular president during a booming economy, even in the face of scandels. Now considered by historians to be utterly contemptable. Clinton might not fall into the same catagory, but he won't be anything greater than mid-level, where, frankly, he deserves to be.

As for a set of rankings:

http://opinionjournal.com/hail/math/mathintro.html

This was done by the Federalist Society who got 78 scholars from left to right to respond.

Reagan was ranked 8th and Eisenhower 9th. Washington was #1 by a hair over Lincoln. FDR was 3.

[KrazyHorse]

Reagan #8. Hah.

The man was a senile, doddering old fool. The national debt grew an average of 23.6% per year under his tenure, almost twice as fast as under his nearest competitor. His defense spending funded a boom which had to be paid for by the late 80s bust.

#8.

Even Dubya will end up being a better president than Reagan was.

[Kc7mxo]

""""""""""""""""""""
The man was a senile, doddering old fool. The national debt grew an average of 23.6% per year under his tenure, almost twice as fast as under his nearest competitor. His defense spending funded a boom which had to be paid for by the late 80s bust.
""""""""""""""""""""

Do you know anything about economics?

A Mister Keys (SP?) wrote a document that has become the foundation of our economic policies.

I doubt anyone is interesting in reading the whole thing, but many of you may already have.

However, a key concept is that during an economic low, a governement is supposed to spend, spend, spend, into as big a defficet as needed. This jumpstarts the economy.

What our governement has most recently failed to realize, is that when this pays off with an economic boom, you're supposed to pay OFF the deficet. Which neither clinton nor bush have or are doing. Personally, I'd rather Bush had spent the surplus on the deficit, but u have to give him credit. He said he would give the american people its taxes back, and he did.

A certain some one else would have played word games and lied to us.

[KrazyHorse]

Umm..kc7etc:

The entire early 80s was an economic boom, yet the spending continued, and created an artificial bubble which collapsed in 87. It was bad economics to spend in a boom, both for the reason that it's wasted money and also because it actively can cause a bust. There was no sane reason for the spending in the 80s, IMHO, and definitely no reason for the level of spending which was seen.

BTW, the name is Keynes. Not evey economist is a die-hard Keynesian, from what I've heard.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Not evey economist is a die-hard Keynesian, from what I've heard.

That would be the understatement of the year.

KH is dead on about what happened in the 80s.

Reagan and the American conservatives are staunch opponents of Keynes.

Kc7mxo was partially right when he wrote: "I doubt anyone is interesting in reading the whole thing, but many of you may already have. "

Very few people would be interested enough to read, let alone understand, Keynes' General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money. It is a difficult read and probably very few people have read it.

A lot of people claim to understand it, but Keynes is often misunderstood.

Keynes argued that during certain economic conditions, using interest rates to spur economic growth won't work. Normally, lower interest rates leads to increased spending because people/businesses can borrow money at a cheap price, or because the cost of repaying existing loans decrease leaving money for additional spending. But in certain cases, this does not work. Sometimes, people believe that interest rates will continue to fall. So they put off spending in hopes of borrowing money at a cheaper rate later on. Or their fears about the economy leads then to stop spending out of fear they may lose their jobs/business.

Of course, there’s a lot more to Keynes ideas, but it is interesting to note that interest rates cuts during the past year have failed to spur the economy, mainly because people perceive the economy will remain in a downturn.

Another important point made by Keynes is that cutting government spending during a recession causes the economy to shrink even more.

Keynes’s theories have been extensively attacked since he put forth his ideas in the 1930s. Some of the theories have been discarded, even by those who consider themselves neo-Keynesians. But many of his theories remain in use today.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Reagan was a brainless coot who happened to be very amiable and tell timely jokes. What he had going for him were strong patriotism and excellent speaking skills. His policies were generally ill-advised. The military spending of his administration is what built up the huge deficit we now have looming over us. The only ones who claim the debt is not a big deal are the same ones who happily cheered its creation back in the 80s. Trickle-down economics, his prime catchphrase, proved to be a collossal bust.

I've often found it puzzling how young americans can be so staunch in their support for Reagan, despite not having been adults during his tenure. He was NOT a good president by any measure beyond raising people's pride and patriotism. This, sadly, is enough to win elections.

[mactbone]

I guess having a good eceonomy while you are in office is better ala Bill "I feel your pain" Clinton. Maybe not all of Reagan's policies were the best, but guess what, no Pres. is perfect.

[KrazyHorse]

Yeah, but offhand I can name a dozen presidents that were better for the US than Reagan.

Clinton was a lame duck, and will be forgotten. Whether or not he would have been a good president with legislative support is a moot point.

Also, I'll easily agree that Reagan outperformed Clinton in terms of public speaking ability; Reagan was an actor, and it helped him a great deal in cultivating public opinion.