About the American Civilization......

[Leonidas]

It seems that Firaxis is opting for the familiar face/person so as not to have to force any gamers to have to actually open a history textbook to find out who the leaders are

[static]

Originally posted by Kc7mxo
Clinton as top 5 president? Thats rather a stretch don't you think.

Any economist can tell you that the president has very little effect on the economy. His handling of the oil crisis? Please.

Greatest economic boom. The economic boom was alrady gaining strength s he went in to office. He merely didn't do anything to hinder it. And the current reccession started before he left office. But it wasn't his fault either.

JFk would certainly belong higher up on the list if only for his more unifyiny abilities (thoguh he wasn't universally liked, not by a long shot). I think that in the great book of history clinton will go down next to taft, nothing special.

Clinton had very little effect on the economy??? Let's see:
Clinton's administration dealings with Middle East countries lower the price of a oil in the country greatly (This is a historical fact). Production in the country is directly tied into oil, the fact that oil and energy prices have gone up under G.W. Bush is one of the reasons for our recent economic downturn.

His administration and the Republicans of Congress worked together to on many issues(welfare reform etc...), and he turned around the nation's deficit and left us with a 'estimated' surplus,(which since he left is already gone).

The influence of the internet should also not be forgotten. He made expanding the internet one of his top goal early in his term, way before most people even knew what the internet was, (I still remember those LAME bridge to the 21st century commercials they made). Internet companies were a huge part of the economic boom.

I think most people who say Clinton had nothing to do with America's economy are foolish. Forget all your polictical affiliations and just look at history for what it is, and you will see this. If people stopped calling themselves Democrats, Republicans, Liberals,Conservatives, etc.........., and we just called ourselves AMERICANS, then I think things would be much better.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by static

1. F.D.R. - Led the country out the economic ruin and of course his leadership during WW2.
GOOD
2. Lincoln - Kept the country together during the civil war (much harder than it sounds).
GOOD
3. Washington - His diplomacy and honesty was necessary for the U.S. when it started, especially with all politcal battles over state rights.
GOOD
4. Cinton And you can't forget about him getting 'favors' from an intern while on the phone with senators.

He was on the Phone with a General deciding where to drop bombs that morning.
I was a Democrate when he was elected both time and I did not vote for him either time. He is a disgrace to the American Veterans of which I'am one of.

5. Jefferson - Perhaps had the biggest impact on America than any other president, but most of it actually came before and during the formation of the U.S., and not while he was office.

He brought the Louisiana Purchase for 15m w/o firing one shot at another nation. Sent Lewis and Clark on their westward exploring trip.

[jsw363]

Originally posted by static


Clinton had very little effect on the economy??? Let's see:
Clinton's administration dealings with Middle East countries lower the price of a oil in the country greatly (This is a historical fact). Production in the country is directly tied into oil, the fact that oil and energy prices have gone up under G.W. Bush is one of the reasons for our recent economic downturn.

His administration and the Republicans of Congress worked together to on many issues(welfare reform etc...), and he turned around the nation's deficit and left us with a 'estimated' surplus,(which since he left is already gone).

The influence of the internet should also not be forgotten. He made expanding the internet one of his top goal early in his term, way before most people even knew what the internet was, (I still remember those LAME bridge to the 21st century commercials they made). Internet companies were a huge part of the economic boom.

I think most people who say Clinton had nothing to do with America's economy are foolish. Forget all your polictical affiliations and just look at history for what it is, and you will see this. If people stopped calling themselves Democrats, Republicans, Liberals,Conservatives, etc.........., and we just called ourselves AMERICANS, then I think things would be much better.

Sorry, can't allow this to slip by and let people think that this is correct.

With regards to energy prices... I distinctly remember two years ago when Americans (especially farmers in the Midwest) were complaining that gasoline was too expensive. There were LINES for gas in some places (not like bread lines in N. Korea, but still). Last Christmas, while Clinton was still in office, the energy crisis was so bad that California couldn't even light the state Christmas tree. Doesn't seem like Clinton was such a genius when it came to energy prices.

Clinton EXPANDED the federal gov't and its programs. If you're spending more how does this contribute to becoming fiscally sound. Your math doesn't add up. Clinton just happened to be president when companies were making so much money that more taxes came in, not that he slashed gov't spending in order to stop the deficit from growing.

With regards to the internet... Yes, Clinton was President when the Internet became widely used, but besides getting some computers for classrooms what did he really do. He didn't even begin to focus on the Internet until 1996. The private sector had for many years been developing the technology without Clinton's technology initiatives for many years. I think the credit for the Internet goes not to Gore or Clinton, but to the American private sector.

If you want to talk about the economic growth, many people think that Clinton really didn't have much to do with the growth, but jsut happened to be there at the right time. Many would credit Greenspan or Reagan with creating the environment for growth. Just wanted to point out that this is a deisputed area even among economists.

I think that he was a good president, but definitely NOT top 5. Somewhere in the middle of the pack. And the stuff that he put the nation through with his scandals (Whitewater, Tyson Foods, Travelgate, presidential pardons, stealing furniture, Vince Foster, Gennifer Flowers, Paula Jones, and one fat intern) didn't exactly help the country, regardless of his involvement in these affairs.

[static]

Originally posted by joseph1944

He was on the Phone with a General deciding where to drop bombs that morning.
I was a Democrate when he was elected both time and I did not vote for him either time. He is a disgrace to the American Veterans of which I'am one of.

I was joking about his affair with Monica being a good thing, and I'm neither a Democrat or Republican, but an Independant.
Jefferson had an affair with one of his slaves(much worse IMHO), but as a statesman and President he is regarded highly, as he should be.

How many of any of the Civ leaders were good guys personally anyway. It could be said that Mao Tse-Tung is a disgrace to the Chinese people, but his impact on China is the reason he was included. Were Ceasar, Genghis Khan, Napolean, insignificant because they weren't good people?

[static]

Originally posted by jsw363


Sorry, can't allow this to slip by and let people think that this is correct.

With regards to energy prices... I distinctly remember two years ago when Americans (especially farmers in the Midwest) were complaining that gasoline was too expensive. There were LINES for gas in some places (not like bread lines in N. Korea, but still). Last Christmas, while Clinton was still in office, the energy crisis was so bad that California couldn't even light the state Christmas tree. Doesn't seem like Clinton was such a genius when it came to energy prices.

Clinton EXPANDED the federal gov't and its programs. If you're spending more how does this contribute to becoming fiscally sound. Your math doesn't add up. Clinton just happened to be president when companies were making so much money that more taxes came in, not that he slashed gov't spending in order to stop the deficit from growing.

With regards to the internet... Yes, Clinton was President when the Internet became widely used, but besides getting some computers for classrooms what did he really do. He didn't even begin to focus on the Internet until 1996. The private sector had for many years been developing the technology without Clinton's technology initiatives for many years. I think the credit for the Internet goes not to Gore or Clinton, but to the American private sector.

If you want to talk about the economic growth, many people think that Clinton really didn't have much to do with the growth, but jsut happened to be there at the right time. Many would credit Greenspan or Reagan with creating the environment for growth. Just wanted to point out that this is a deisputed area even among economists.

I think that he was a good president, but definitely NOT top 5. Somewhere in the middle of the pack. And the stuff that he put the nation through with his scandals (Whitewater, Tyson Foods, Travelgate, presidential pardons, stealing furniture, Vince Foster, Gennifer Flowers, Paula Jones, and one fat intern) didn't exactly help the country, regardless of his involvement in these affairs.

Let me just say, I didn't vote for Clinton in any of the elections, and really don't like the guy, unfortuanatly it seems that I have to defend him.

Oil prices have gone over the last two years, but that's more of Clinton being a lameduck president after the impeachment. Our so-called energy crisis in Cailfornia doesn't exist, we had no blackouts this summer and actually sold off EXTRA energy we bought for $1 kilowatt . It was all media hype like Y2K, and cost us California millions, hopefully it costs our governor Gray Davis his shot at being President in 2004.

The Federal government has expanded under Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush again, I think that has more to do with Congress.

Almost every president has had multiple scandals, Reagan was a good leader, but should he be disregarded because of Iran-Contra, of course not.

Lastly, of course the private sector built up the Internet, but his technology initiatives Sped up and aided the development of it greatly.

I think I need to go take a shower now after giving out all this praise to Clinton.

[saracen31]

What war was Washington in office during?

True, he wasn't "in office" during the Revolutionary War, but was a great war leader & the first president.

[Stefu]

Abe Lincoln is a perfectly good choice. For one thing, he was an important leader, for another, for us Europeans, he is a familiar face amongst the big list of U.S. presidents.

[Inverse Icarus]

Clinton promised the Vets that there would be an embargo on Vietnam until we recieved all the POW's, and after being elected he started trading with them.

[Transcend]

Speaking of scandals, how about Catherine of Russia who was able to consume several men during a single night? Wasn't she still called the "Great" by historians?

You moral purists should remind that many great US presidents(Jefferson, Jackson, FDR, and JFK) would have been picked apart by today's media and the Independent Counsel.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by Transcend
Speaking of scandals, how about Catherine of Russia who was able to consume several men during a single night? Wasn't she still called the "Great" by historians?

You moral purists should remind that many great US presidents(Jefferson, Jackson, FDR, and JFK) would have been picked apart by today's media and the Independent Counsel.

However with Clinton we really don't know where to start. In Gov circle he was going to out bang every other president who did bang. You may not relize this, If Clinton was a goverment Employee doing what he did, he would have been fired. A friend of mine gave me a paper to read several year ago on Clinton and the people that worked around him in the early days, guess what they are all dead now. You cannot tell a tale if you are dead. A guy call someone and said I will be home in a few min. and then kills himself (Vince Foster), you tell me.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by joseph1944

However with Clinton we really don't know where to start. In Gov circle he was going to out bang every other president who did bang. You may not relize this, If Clinton was a goverment Employee doing what he did, he would have been fired. A friend of mine gave me a paper to read several year ago on Clinton and the people that worked around him in the early days, guess what they are all dead now. You cannot tell a tale if you are dead. A guy call someone and said I will be home in a few min. and then kills himself (Vince Foster), you tell me.

Yeah, yeah. What paper was that? Lots of people love conspiracy theories and this country is full of it. Even moon landing was claimed to be fake according to some "independent" and "reliable" sources. Clinton has many friends, numbering perhaps in thousands. Don't you have friends dying from time to time, too?

Of course, Clinton was the one ever got caught, and you can argue that there were many "uncaught" acts by him. But again, these are stuffs for Consipiracy Theorists and I would give Clinton the benefit of doubt.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by Transcend

Of course, Clinton was the one ever got caught, and you can argue that there were many "uncaught" acts by him. But again, these are stuffs for Consipiracy Theorists and I would give Clinton the benefit of doubt.

The innocence of youth. Because you are young I will forgive you for it. If you were my age and said that I would be very concerned. I worked for the US gov for 33 years 4 mo. 11 day, you watch every step they take and question every other step and you will survive. The first time you take your eyes off them watch out.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by joseph1944

The innocence of youth. Because you are young I will forgive you for it. If you were my age and said that I would be very concerned. I worked for the US gov for 33 years 4 mo. 11 day, you watch every step they take and question every other step and you will survive. The first time you take your eyes off them watch out.

Well, Joseph. I'd like to apologize for some of the harsh words I used against you before. Even though you are on guard against the US government, you still bought lots of its propaganda against other countries. I find your views on China sometimes biased and offensive, prompting some harsh responses from me. Now that I know your situation, I no longer blame you for that.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by Transcend


Well, Joseph. I'd like to apologize for some of the harsh words I used against you before. Even though you are on guard against the US government, you still bought lots of its propaganda against other countries. I find your views on China sometimes biased and offensive, prompting some harsh responses from me. Now that I know your situation, I no longer blame you for that.

Thank you. Some of the propaganda but not all. The people of China and China itself no, the Goverment Yes big time. Any Goverment that put down its people forget it in my book, even some of those so-called Dem. anti-Communist w/a dictator Gov. In the 80s, If a person from San Salvador had ask me to hide him/her I think I would have.