Which unique leaders will be included in CivIII?

[Alexander I]

I have come up with a list of unique military leaders that are possibilities for CivIII. Please respond with any suggestions. Also, should leaders from non-included cultures that are associated with included civs be in? For example, should Babylon get Assyrian leaders? Should the "British" also get Scottish leaders? Should the Romans get Italian leaders? Oh, and an asterisk (*) indicates an animated leader that we are uncertain of that could just serve as a unique general unit.

Anyway, here's the list so far:

Americans: George Washington, Andrew Jackson, William Henry Harrison, Zachary Taylor, Winfield Scott, John B. Fremont, Ulysses S. Grant, Robert E. Lee, Thomas “Stonewall” Jackson, George B. McClellan, William T. Sherman, David Farragut, Raphael Semmes, David Porter, John “Blackjack” Pershing, George Patton, Dwight Eisenhower, Omar Bradley, George Marshall, Chester Nimitz, Douglas MacArthur, Norman Schwarzkopf, Colin Powell

Aztecs: Cuitlahuac, Cuauhtemoc, Quetzalcoatl, Motecuhzoma, Nezahualcoyotl, Itzcoatl, Tlacaelel, Acamapichtli, Axoquentzin, Opochtzin, Ahuitzotl

Babylonians: Marduk-Baladan, Nabopolassar, Nebuchadnezzar, Amil-Marduk, Neriglissar, Tiglath-Pileser, Sargon, Sennacherib, Esarhaddon, Assurbanipal, Assurnasirpal, Assurdan, Shamshi-Adad, Adad-Nirari, Shalmeneser, Ashpenaz, Arioch, Rab-shakeh, Labashi-Marduk, Nabonidus, Belshazzar, Nebuzar-adan, Nabo-nassar, Sardonapalus

British: Arthur, Alfred the Great, Edmund I, Athelstan, Harold Godwinson, William the Conqueror, Richard the Lionhearted, Edward I, Edward III, Edward, the Black Prince, Henry V, Sir Francis Drake, Sir Walter Raleigh, John, Duke of Marlborough, Oliver Cromwell, John Burgoyne, Charles Cornwallis, Arthur, Duke of Wellington, Lord Horatio Nelson, Sir Charles Gordon, Sir Garnet Wolseley, Lord Robert Baden-Powell, Lord H. H. Kitchener, Lord Douglas Haig, Sir Edmund Allenby, Bernard Montgomery, Wolfe

Chinese: Sun Tzu, Wu Zixu, Fan Li, Lian Po, Xiang Yu, Li Guang, Cao Cao, Zhuge Liang, Li Shimin, Li Jin, Zhao Kuangyin, Yue Fei, Qi Jiguang, Kangxi, Ling Biao, Peng Dehuai, Chiang Kai-shek

Egyptians: Narmer, Thutmose III, Horemheb, Ramses II, the Great, Ramses III, Sheshonq, Necho, Psammetichus

French: Clovis, Charles Martel, Pepin, Charlemagne (why not?), Roland, Philip II, Charles d'Albret, Constable Richemont, Cardinal Richelieu, Louis XIV, Marquis de Lafayette, Napoleon Bonaparte, Ney, Davout, Murat, Soult, Grouchy, Bernadotte, d'Erlon, Reille, Napoleon III, Ferdinand Foch, Joseph Joffre, Henri Petain, Champlain, Charles de Gaulle

Germans: Arminius (Hermann), Siegfried, Alaric, Theodoric, Lothar, Heinrich I, Otto I, the Great, Frederick Barbarossa?*, Albrecht von Wallenstein, Frederick the Great, Gebhard von Bluecher, Neidhard von Gneisenau, Otto von Bismarck?*, Ferdinand von Zeppelin, Helmut von Moltke, Alexander von Kluck, Alfred von Tirpitz, Alfred von Schlieffen, Paul von Hindenburg, Erich Ludendorff, Wilhelm Keitel, Alfred Jodl, Hans von Friedeburg, Hans-Joergen Stuempff, Karl Doenitz, Karl von Rundstedt, Erwin Rommel, Heinz Guderian, Manstein, Model, Student, Raeder, von Brauchitsch

Greeks: Agamemmnon, Achilles, Ajax, Odysseus, Menelaus, Epaminondas, Themistocles, Cleisthenes, Leonidas, Pericles, Philip, Seleucus, Ptolemy, Antigonus, Antipater, Antiochus, Demetrius, Alexander (not "the Great")

Indians: Porus, Chandragupta Maurya, Ashoka, Babur, Humayun, Akbar, Jahangir, Aurangzeb, Shah Jahan

Iroquois: Tecumseh, Joseph Brant (Thayendanega)

Japanese: Minamoto Yoritomo, Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Takeda Shingen, Uesugi Kenshin, Mori Motonari, Tojo Hideki, Yamamoto Isoroku

Persians: Achaemenes, Cyrus the Great, Cambyses, Smerdis, Hystaspes, Darius the Great, Xerxes?*, Artabanus, Artaxerxes, Artaphernes, Datis, Mardonius, Arses, Cyaxares, Astyages, Alyattes, Croesus

Romans: Scipio Africanus, Lucius Paullus, Gaius Marius, Lucius Sulla, Pompey, Crassus, Julius Caesar?*, Mark Antony, Augustus Caesar, Tiberius, Germanicus, Claudius, Vespasian, Titus, Otho, Vitellius, Galba, Nerva, Domitian, Trajan, Hadrian, Marcus Aurelius, Aurelian, Diocletian, Constantine, Valentinian, Aetius

Russians: Riurik, Ermak, Oleg, Vladimir the Great, Alexander Nevski, Ivan III, the Great, Ivan IV, the Terrible, Boris Godunov, Dimitri Donskoi, Princess Olga, Peter I, the Great, Kuzma Minin, Dmitry Pozharsky, Bogdan Khmelnitski, Gregori Potemkin, Peter Rumyantsev, Alexander Suvorov, Prince Bagration, Fedor Ushakov, Mikhail Kutuzov, Alexei Ermolov, Pavel Nakhimov, Nicholas I, Vladimir Kornilov, Alexander Samsonov, Alexander Brusilov, Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolaevich Romanov, Nicholas II, Leon Trotsky, Klement Voroshilov, Konstantin Rokossovski, Gregori Zhukov

Zulus: Shaka Zulu?*, Cetewayo, Dingiswayo, Dingane

Once again, please respond with suggestions.

Edit - 12/08/2001 - Aztec leaders from Sabre2th
Edit - 13/08/2001 - Assyrian leaders for Babylon from Alexander01
Edit - 14/08/2001 - Chinese, German and Roman leaders from Transcend
Edit - 14/08/2001 - Russian leaders from redfox74
Edit - 17/08/2001 - Many assorted leaders from diverse sources
Edit - 18/08/2001 - French and Russian leaders from Grumbold
Edit - 18/08/2201 - Babylonian, German and Russian leaders from Alexander01

[Sabre2th]

I noticed your list for the Aztecs was very short. May I suggest a few?

• Quetzalcoatl
• Motecuhzoma
• Nezahualcoyotl
• Itzcoatl
• Tlacaelel
• Acamapichtli
• Axoquentzin
• Cuauhtemoc
• Opochtzin
• Ahuitzotl

These are just a few, but it's a start. I'll try to remember a few more later

[Pythagoras]

Polk is my favorite president. He worked his ass off to fulfill his campaign promises, even if he was extremly unethical, it still shows some level of integrity in a humourous sort of way.

[Alexander I]

Thanks, Sabre2th. I'm not much of an expert on Aztec history. I'll add these to the list. I did have Cuauhtemoc already, though.

And I DO know that Quetzalcoatl, while being the name of a deity, was also a Ninth-Century Toltec priest-leader (Quetzalcoatl Topiltzin, I believe) whose attributes were intermingled with those of the deity to form a legend for latter times.

[Mercator]

Re: Which unique leaders will be included in CivIII?

Originally posted by Alexander01
For example, should Babylon get Assyrian leaders?

Yes:

Because of the historical significance and legendary status achieved by the city of Babylon, the term "Babylonian" is often used as a blanket term to refer to all of the cultures and tribes of the southern Mesopotamian region, including the Sumerians, Akkadians, Amorites, Hittites, Kassites, Assyrians, Arameans, and Chaldeans.

... As quoted from the http://www.civ3.com "Civ of the Wek" feature.

Should the "British" also get Scottish leaders?

Only if those Scottish leaders fought for the English/British Empire, so no "Braveheart".

Should the Romans get Italian leaders?

I don´t think so, they´re much too different.
Italian leaders would fit for a separate "Italian" civ, based on the Renaissance Italian city states/Italian Republic (?) united somewhere in the 19th century (?) until present day.

Oh, and please skip the "Caesar" bit from all Roman emperors (except the "real" Caesar (Gaius Julius), but he wasn´t an emperor anyway).

[JamesJKirk]

I'm sure some of our English (and.or British) friends here may be annoyed at the inclusion of Haig as a special leader, what would his ability be? To have units take more damage than they would normally?

Also, I think Heinz Guderian should be included in Germany's list, he's the one that masterminded the invasion of France, no small feat, I suppose.

[Transcend]

Some suggestions for Romans:
Republican Era: Scipio Africanus, Lucius Paullus, Marius, Sulla, Pompeius, Markus Antonius
Imperial Era: Trajan, Aurelian, Dioclectian, Constantine, Valentinian, Aetius

Some suggestions for Germans:
Legendary Beginnings: Arminius, Siegfried, Alarich, Theoderich
Middle Ages: Otto I, Friedrich Barbarossa, Wallenstein
Prussian Era: Friedrich der Grosse, Bluecher, von Moltke, von Hindenburg
Modern Times: Guderian, Manstein, Rommel, Rundstedt, Model

Some suggestions for Chinese:
Pre-Empire: Sun Zi, Wu Zixu, Fan Li, Lian Po
Early Empire: Xiang Yu, Li Guang, Cao Cao, Zhuge Liang
Middle Empire: Li Shimin, Li Jin, Zhao Kuangyin, Yue Fei
Late Empire: Xu Da, Qi Jiguang, Kangxi
Modern Times: Jiang Jieshi, Ling Biao, Peng Dehuai

[redfox74]

Russians:

Alexander Nevski, Dmitry Donskoi, Princess Olga (ancient + medieval)

Peter the Great Romanov, Peter Rumyantsev, Grigory Potemkin, Alexander Suvorov, Fedor Ushakov (navy), Mikhail Kutuzov, Alexey Ermolov, Pavel Nakhimov (navy), Vladimir Kornilov (navy) (renaissance)

Kliment Voroshilov, Konstantin Rokossovski, Georgy Zhukov (modern)

There are some more...

[Draco aka Se7eN]

Hey for the Americans do you think Audie Murphy could be included?

I know he was only a soldier but he was DA MAN ! !

[Alexander I]

Thanks for the input, guys. I'll update the list further tomorrow.
And everybody, don't forget to come up with more potential generals. I think we could send this in to Firaxis if it gets good enough. I mean really, who wants to be playing the Babylonians, expecting to lead its chariots to global domination, only to find that its top echelon of generals consists of Stonewall Jackson, George Patton, and Colin Powell? A veritable travesty!




"Don't be vague, ask for Haig!" - British campaign poster, First World War

[Juggernaut]

an animated leader that could double as a unique general unit.

Would be quite weird. All general units gain their status by winning a lot of fights as a regular unit. If they already are the main leader of the civ they can't just be an anonymous unit on the battlefield. Won't happen.

[Alexander I]

I've added in Transcend's and redfox74's new leaders, in addition to some other random ones I found myself. I have also removed any 100% confirmed animated leaders (diplomacy) from the potential unique military leaders' list.

Keep the input coming! We have quite a lot, but I know there's more out there! Thanks for your support!

[redfox74]

About Russian leaders added by Alexander01:

Riurik was rather a viking leader than Russian. He founded a great dynasty, which ruled Russia, but he wasn't Russian.

St. Vladimir the Great (aka Vladimir Red Sun) is a great choice. He was a great ruler, military leader and christened Russia in 988.

Ivan III and Ivan IV are also o.k. (But they were czars, not military leaders.) We could add Ermak, the wellknown leader of cossacks and strelets' (early musketeers), who defeated the Tatar horde in Siberia and founded the first Russian cities there about 1586.

I don't know if Boris Godunov was involved in any important wars.

Nikolai I was a reactionary czar with very hard domestic and foreign policy. He led many wars, but he had his generals. I don't think he was a great military leader himself.

Alexander Samsonov was a general of cavalry, his 2nd army was defeated 1914. It wasn't his fault, sure. But he wasn't a big military leader and isn't wellknown.

There were much more great military leaders in Russia (for example Prince Oleg, who occupied Constantinople or Kuzma Minin and Dmitry Pozharsky, who organized volunteer corps againt Polish and so on....). Do we want them all?

How about Ukrainians - Bogdan Khmelnitski for example? Ukraine is very close to Russia, in ancient times it was no difference between them - Kievan Rus was their common state.

[Transcend]

Russia had one brilliant general: Alexander Brussilov. His offensive in 1916 ruptured the entire Austro-Hungarian front and forced Germans to abandon their plans at Verdun. He was the most competent Russian general in WWI. Samsonov the Loser should not be listed.

[red_jon]

Here are some suggestions :-

Britain/England - Winston Churchill

France - Joan of Arc (if she isn't a leader)

Germany - Gustav Streiseman (sp?)