I wonder why Americans....

[red_jon]

Wouldn't it be more accurate to just portray the native Americans as 'barbarian' tribes? I don't mean to be un-pc or racist, but in civ terms they were not coordinated, did not have a united leader, did not build city improvements, etc.

The US shouod be in there - they are a civ in every sense of the word.

[Waku]

Originally posted by Draco aka Se7eN
I think a gentlemen by the name of Cortez would disagree with you. I do believe that was his name.

Thanks to this joly fellow we have the privlige of not experiancing the culture of the aztecs. Atleast i think its all gone, sure their might be a few who pass the culture in the realitive family but no real nation.

1.- Obviously you learn History reading cereal boxes. Mexican culture is the result of a cultural mix (wether u like it or not), that's what makes a mexican different from a spaniard (his aztec inheritance) and they are proud of it (USians can't say the same, 99% of them don't considere themselves descendant of any indian culture). You can blame spanish of doing this mix from a dominant position (that means explotation, spoilation, pludering, slavery, etc and I feel really ashamed for it) but WE DID NOT EXTERMINATE THEM as YOU DID

2.- Cortés was a XV cent. soldier, mainly motivated by crusaders. On the other hand we can find this kind of guys fighting under you "flag of freedom":

- William Walker
- Colonel Chivington


THIS is hilarious.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Tingkai
As for the Europeans, they did not have world power until the 19th century.

They never had, no tribe has ever had absolute power over the entire world or we would probably not be playing this game. But several had a Golden Age in which they could basically do what they wanted wherever they went. From Europe, the Romans, Spanish, Dutch and English all had such an age, in this order of appearance, even while there were always competitors waiting to undermine their authority.

[SK138]

I can't believe this post lasted this long!

My opinion is that the Spanish should be in, but you can't leave out the Americans. There would be controversy over excluding any civ to put in a new civ. Firaxis said that you can create your own civs, maybe that means you can have more than 16 or just save over one you don't like. I don't think this post should have gone on this long, every civ that Firaxis put in has some historical achievement and deserves to be in, but there is just so many other civs that deserve to be in, too, and if Firaxis spent the time to put them all in, we might have to wait a lot longer to play it.

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by joseph1944


The Iroq. lived in what is now upper New York State. They built long houses with wood. They even frame their houses before coving it with hids.

But that was JUST the Iroquis. Not the entire League. The league was a confederation of indians living in the area. The league lasted less than 100 years. The league was a city-state civlization. The Iroquis were merely a 'tribe'.

Well if you admit they were not united then why would you lump them into a single groups. The various native nations were separated by language and lifestyle. Some were nomadic. Some were farmers. Some were relatively rich with extensive time for the arts, others were poor.

This is why I would lump them into one group. They all had a similar ideology, believing in one god but many spirits.

As for the Europeans, they did not have world power until the 19th century. In the 17th and 18th century, China was one of the most civilized places on earth.

Never said anything about this, however, China halted its development fairly soon after the development of the firecracker or we would all be Chinese right now.

China wasn't ever a world power if you define a world power as owning half of the world. The Mongols captured china. I define a world power like; The ancient Greeks or Persians, etc. (Master of a medium-area for long periods of time)

European major powers,

[Transcend]

Originally posted by DarkCloud

China wasn't ever a world power if you define a world power as owning half of the world. The Mongols captured china. I define a world power like; The ancient Greeks or Persians, etc. (Master of a medium-area for long periods of time)

European major powers,

Weren't Greece and Persia eventually conquered by other powers as well? How long was the Persian master of large territories? From 550BC to 331BC, a merely 219 years. All later Persian Empires were far smaller and less populous than China. Greek Empires held out even shorter, only from 331BC to 168(BC), a puny 163 years before being crushed. On the otherhand, China held large, non-chinese central asian territories for 200 years during the Han Dynasty, 150 more during Tang Dynasty, and permanently since 1757. Also, the Chinese core territory were as big and populous as the Roman Empire. If China was not a world power for you, then neither should Greece, Persia, Rome, France, and Germany be world powers. By your definition, only the British Empire at its height, the late 20th century America, and mid 20th century Soviet Union should ever be considered world powers.

[Jay Bee]

...and 16th century Spain Hasn't it been enough fuss already about it?

[Draco aka Se7eN]

1.- Obviously you learn History reading cereal boxes. Mexican culture is the result of a cultural mix (wether u like it or not), that's what makes a mexican different from a spaniard (his aztec inheritance) and they are proud of it (USians can't say the same, 99% of them don't considere themselves descendant of any indian culture). You can blame spanish of doing this mix from a dominant position (that means explotation, spoilation, pludering, slavery, etc and I feel really ashamed for it) but WE DID NOT EXTERMINATE THEM as YOU DID

2.- Cortés was a XV cent. soldier, mainly motivated by crusaders. On the other hand we can find this kind of guys fighting under you "flag of freedom":

Now Waku your just being silly

Sure the spaniards took advantage of the aztec women but does that really count, Americans did the same, Ive known quite a few people that are of indian decent but are more noticibly white or even african american (probably different circumstances). They dont go running around shouting im a native american but if you ask them where they come from they will tell you. So i kinda doubt your 99% is accurate. And yeah im pretty sure they exterminated the Aztecs.

Obviously you learn History reading cereal boxes.

Please dont insult me, you dont know me.

You seem a little bit too attatched to the past. Its better to learn from the past than live in the past. I did not Exterminate anyone, i am as far from being racist as anyone can be. The only people i dont like are racists. I really dislike when someone assumes someone is racist just because of their actions.

Waku your posts seem to single out americans as exterminators, I dont think that is a good way of looking at things. Looking at an entire civilization (nation, race, or whatever) that way is kinda racist. What i see is people that have made terrible mistakes, mistakes we should learn from so never to commit them again. We shouldnt dwell on these mistakes, that is the path to repeating them.

Its important to understand that People are stupid but a person is smart. In my own words this simply means dont be a part of the mob, think for your self. Also dont look at people at a whole but look at each person.

I think it would be wise to end this part of this discussion before things get out of hand.

[Transcend]

The only civ that didn't deserve to be in is the Iroquois. But if Firaxis argues that they represent all the aboriginial cultures, then I will be fine with it. Otherwise, Mongols/Turks/Eurasian Steppe Nomads come before Spaniards.

[Tingkai]

Darkcloud wrote: "But that was JUST the Iroquis. Not the entire League. The league was a confederation of indians living in the area. The league lasted less than 100 years. The league was a city-state civlization. The Iroquis were merely a 'tribe'. "

Darkcloud, you need to check your history books.

The Iroquois League initially had five nations or tribes, such as the Mohawk and Seneca. A sixth nation joined in 1722. To describe the Iroquois as just a tribe is completely wrong.

The league was also not a city-state civilization as each nation had numerous settlements.

As for the history, Encyclopedia Britannica contends that the league was formed in 1570, others place the origin date back to 900s. Even accepting the later date, the league lasted until the end of the American Revolution so that's 200 years.

For more info about the Iroquois, see http://www.tolatsga.org/iro.html

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Darkcloud wrote: "But that was JUST the Iroquis. Not the entire League. The league was a confederation of indians living in the area. The league lasted less than 100 years. The league was a city-state civlization. The Iroquis were merely a 'tribe'. "

Darkcloud, you need to check your history books.

The Iroquois League initially had five nations or tribes, such as the Mohawk and Seneca. A sixth nation joined in 1722. To describe the Iroquois as just a tribe is completely wrong.

The league was also not a city-state civilization as each nation had numerous settlements.

As for the history, Encyclopedia Britannica contends that the league was formed in 1570, others place the origin date back to 900s. Even accepting the later date, the league lasted until the end of the American Revolution so that's 200 years.

For more info about the Iroquois, see http://www.tolatsga.org/iro.html

My World Book Encyclopedia said 1400 or maybe prior to. We are in the ball park as far as history is concern. On another thread (Lotus thread) I found out the Hopi have lived on the same land for the last 1,301 years and are still there today. They built adobe house 4 stories tall. The Spanish were shock when they saw their housing because it was the same in Spain (1600s).

[Uffty]

Originally posted by red_jon
Wouldn't it be more accurate to just portray the native Americans as 'barbarian' tribes? I don't mean to be un-pc or racist, but in civ terms they were not coordinated, did not have a united leader, did not build city improvements, etc.

The US shouod be in there - they are a civ in every sense of the word.

I dont know what you are up to, but the USA is a country and not a civ! I dont want this discussion get ouf of hands either, but I think some people here are taking things way too serious or even dont have a life.

In real live the US is a nation, military powerful and gives a big big freedom with an ancient voting system (the world's never forgetting that ), a president from the village, NO culture (if you dont count inventions like ...oh well...Pepsi ).

I dont wanna hear Native Americans as Barbarians. They weren't so warful.
This sounds really kinda racist to me.
I have nothing against americans nor native americans, but putting natives so down, being barbarians is not very bright, and speaks of typically computer-based stupidness

[Uffty]

Originally posted by red_jon
Wouldn't it be more accurate to just portray the native Americans as 'barbarian' tribes? I don't mean to be un-pc or racist, but in civ terms they were not coordinated, did not have a united leader, did not build city improvements, etc.

The US shouod be in there - they are a civ in every sense of the word.

I dont know what you are up to, but the USA is a country and not a civ! I dont want this discussion get ouf of hands either, but I think some people here are taking things way too serious or even dont have a life.

In real live the US is a nation, military powerful and gives a big big freedom with an ancient voting system (the world's never forgetting that ), a president from the village, NO culture (if you dont count inventions like ...oh well...Pepsi ).

I dont wanna hear Native Americans as Barbarians. They weren't so warful.
This sounds really kinda racist to me.
I have nothing against americans nor native americans, but putting natives so down, being barbarians is not very bright, and speaks of typically computer-addictical stupidness

[tniem]

Originally posted by Uffty
In real live the US is a nation, military powerful and gives a big big freedom with an ancient voting system (the world's never forgetting that ),

Yeah and were not forgetting it either. That is why were fixing it. But in the end the election proved why the American system works. There are very few nations on Earth that would not have errupted in war or a regime just taking power if that had happened to them. Some in Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia, and the U.S. So we now go and fix our problems.

NO culture (if you dont count inventions like ...oh well...Pepsi ).

You might not consider it culture but in Civ terms it everything that those borders represent. The U.S.'s influence or culture single handly has spread around the world. In Civ terms, the US probably has long ago won the game with the cultural victory tract.

I dont wanna hear Native Americans as Barbarians. They weren't so warful.

Yes they did fight wars. Many Native American groups hated each other. They were just like the ancient groups around the world. They were just behind Europe, Asia, and Mesopatamia. They fought for dominance and were moved along in many of the same ways as groups elsewhere were.

This sounds really kinda racist to me.

Barbarians have taken on a negative conotation. I recall learning in history class, the word originally stood for any stranger in one of the old civs. It eventually came to mean invaders because they were strangers. And of course it is human nature to think other groups are inferior to you and so that is how the word came to mean what it does. I am not sure if that is true but it certainly explains a lot.

[Uffty]

Ok....

Well good answer, but still it's not much satisfying.

You said americans have culture...?

In my opinion, and thats only a opinion ok, I think a big part of a culture is represented by the language. Normally americans have no language (besides the hispanic or chinese, but they belong to other cultures). The language you use for communications is english, a little bit "raped" over the years and spoken way different than good old Londoners do.

But anyway, you don't understand views from outside.

Let me put it so..Americans should be of course in the game, but Spanish shouldnt be have left out. Well after all, you can customize.

So my dear Amis...cheers!