Announcement

**OneFootInTheGrave** · August 12, 2001, 16:37

there is no reasonable explanation... apart that this is just a game...

**SerapisIV** · August 12, 2001, 16:47

Well, this thread is just an invitation for spam, and I hosetly don't give it much of a chance for surviving a few posts before the mods step in, but here's an attempt at an educated answer

The US is currently the single greatest economic and military power in the world and has been at least economically the most powerful for almost a century, the military power is debatable for during the Cold War years. This power will remain for at least the near-future as well. It'll be a good 15-20 years before there is another serious challenger for the "most powerful" nation title. In the Civ games, most of the nations were built on conquest or made famous by war, why then exclude the nation who has been the most powerful nation for longer then the Alexander the Great even lived?

The Americans have created a culture that is strong and vibrant, whether you like it or hate it, the American culture is rapidly influxing itself into other nation's cultures as well (blue jeans and McDonalds anyone?) Civ3 is making a big push for culture, and American culture is so strong that other countries are just trying to keep it out (look at the French trying to outlaw Americanized French words)

When you look at civilizations the Americans are also a mix of everyone. America consists of immigrants from every part of the world. In essence then, America is a summation of all the past civilizations and cultures all in one place. If only for that reason, then America should be included.

What I think the main problem with people against America is the same problem as the Civ2 AI. You're big, we hate you. Simplistic, but probably closer to the truth then people will admit.

edit: changed a paragraph for clearer reading

**Uffty** · August 12, 2001, 17:01

Oh jesus!!

I do not hate you!!!

I want to have explained why american culture comes before spanish culture ????

This game is not a cold war game or any type of REAL LIFE!!!

I want to know what made the Developers think of putting them in as a "Civ"....

They could also have been customizable..instead of Spain!

hmm ?

PS: i dont doubt american military power these days, but my question was highly GAME RELATED!!
And in my Civ Game i'd rather put native americans, cuz these ones were killed, so americans are a colony! thats the european view of things

Americans are nice and friendly (sometimes

) but regarding to this game...its unfair!

**jsw363** · August 12, 2001, 17:12

Well first off... economic reasons. I am a US citizen and NEVER play the americans, but I suspect that there are others who feel differently. They can't alienate the consumers.

And yes, as Serapis pointed out, the US is the culturally, economically, and militarily dominant force in the world right now. Fireaxis just can't write it off. The US isn't going to be a footnote in history books (not that the Spanish are) but you can't ignore the US. They're too big.

And I do take offense to the suggestion that we can't locate anyplace outside the US on a map. How do you think we target our missiles?

(that was a joke) But seriously Americans aren't as uneducated as they pretend to be.

Yeah, the Spanish founded a mission at L.A., but it was hardly the cultural center that it is today. The US has definitely proved themselves as a power (if not a civ in its own right) in the last World Wars.

I think that Spain should have made it in, but not over the Americans. Of course everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions.

**SerapisIV** · August 12, 2001, 17:19

Spain was just an imperialist country that picked on the Native Americans who never had a chance. It was also bad victory too, because by getting easy gold and silver from the Americas, they lost their industrial power at home because they could just buy whatever they wanted.
Spain was never the world power that Britain or France were. While there is no arguement they were a major European nation, they were always second fiddle to stronger countries. The Spanish Armada was their chance, it lost.
Los Angeles was a small missionary town until the US conquered Mexico and took over the Western US just before the gold rush. After the gold rush there was little spanish except in name. It's been recultured through immigration since then and regained a lot of its spanish culture, but it was not a thriving spanish culture you make it sound to be. I take this information directly from Sherman's Memoirs (Civil War general). He was stationed in California during the Mexican War and travelled all over the California coast and spends a lot of time describing the place as there was little actual fighting in California during that war.

**Uffty** · August 12, 2001, 17:23

THAAAAAAAAANKS

Thanks a lot .........jsw363 ..... i'm sorry if you all felt attacked or so....i didnt mean that!

I was confused cuz it seemed not clear for me....and as a
very STRONG European Union-Citizen

i needed to get rid of my opinion...

Both answers given here were highly clearing...and i thank you both for that!

I still see no culture though.....OK i'll be quiet now

Anyway....17th Oct. 2001 is release!!

**SerapisIV** · August 12, 2001, 17:28

A little clarification...Yes, the US as well as other European powers were just as bad at using the native americans and other imperialist countries, but they grew from their imperialism, not collapsed because of it as the spanish did. Which only goes to show that wealth can be a blessing as much as a curse

**DarkCloud** · August 12, 2001, 17:34

Re: I wonder why Americans....

Originally posted by Uffty

1 the spanish should be in
2 not at the expense of the Americans; the major superpower of the 20th century, but perhaps at the expense of another power because the Spanish WERE a superpower for a few hundred years.

**bigfree1** · August 12, 2001, 17:56

Re: I wonder why Americans....

Originally posted by Uffty
...are set in as a Civilization in this Game ?

I think the only reason they are in, is because Americans are making it.

I know most of you are americans, sorry btw, but in fact your "civ" instead of the spanish or portuguese sounds kinda very "national-proud" of the developers, since you are mostly european, asian and african natives.

Americans are not really a Civ, they are an independent colony, in historian view.

So I am not trying to be mean or something, but i want to have this explained.

I know most of you americans dont know where Europe or Africa is, neither do most of you know, that America has borders, but do you really think they have a bigger "cultural" aspect as the Spanish ??

Remember: Los Angeles was actually spanish...

I dont get your way of "we are the best"....its just a game!

Be honest and dont be arrogant. I love my german culture and I'm really happy we are in the game!

Comments from educated minds ?

There's hardly a race/nationality on earth that I would consider to be pure. By that I mean that settlers have wondered all the areas of the earth and I can't imagine that any "civ" have evolved from (whatever you believe) to be pure of only that race. Granted that some "civ's" are older than others and have more roots to the land, but that does not mean that they are any more or less a "civ" unto themselves. We all have our differences and likenesses, we should celebrate that.

BTW, would you consider the Native Americans an ancient civ?

**Inverse Icarus** · August 12, 2001, 18:06

if u go far enough back, everone is from Africa, thats where we started.

and for a while, everyone in Europe was Roman. When Rome Split, people became French, German, Spainish (after a while i guess). after Englands Empire Broke Up we became america. sorry were only 200 years old.

if we colonized mars, and they broke away, would they not be a civ?

and in all fairness, America has impacted the world in a major way in it's 200 year history.

sure, maybe it wasn't the BEST impacts, and many were self-serving, but you other natioins forget your own past. the Fench placed EXTREME DEBTS on the Germans after ww1 that basically set up Hitler to come into power. when he came into power, the British and others (not french so much) had a policy of "appeasement" and basically let Hitler rule in his Facist way, because Germany was bad off.

and lets not forget the exploitation of the colonies.

come on. all nations do bad things.

"the ends justify the means".

tru. tru.

**bigfree1** · August 12, 2001, 18:16

Great point Uber!

**Jay Bee** · August 12, 2001, 19:03

Originally posted by SerapisIV
Spain was never the world power that Britain or France were. While there is no arguement they were a major European nation, they were always second fiddle to stronger countries. The Spanish Armada was their chance, it lost.

Serapis, paragraphs like the one above do not help Uffty and others realize they are wrong when claim that Americans are ignorant. With all due respect, I would like to advise you to read a bit more about European history, especially XV to XVII centuries.

**Provost Harrison** · August 12, 2001, 19:13

The Spanish were extremely powerful for a not-too-short period of time and were easily the most powerful country in the world at this time, hence they were the nation behind the discovery of the Americas and the first contacts over there. It was only when their power waned that other nations capitalised on the New World.

Spanish should not be dismissed like that. Their impact on society has been quite tremendous and most certainly deserve to be regarded as a civ in their own right, more than many others.

**Ribannah** · August 12, 2001, 19:41

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
The Spanish were extremely powerful for a not-too-short period of time and were easily the most powerful country in the world at this time ...

Well, that may be true for most of the 16th century, but then the Spanish were defeated by the Dutch and the English who ruled the 17th and 18th century respectively, until the French really messed things up (again

). And during all that time, there were other powerful tribes not that much behind. Techwise, the Dutch contributed more to human history than the Spanish, and they are still a major economic power today, but the Dutch aren't in either.

The reason the Americans are in is pretty obvious: Firaxis wants a modern tribe from that continent and it was a toss-up between Americans and Canadians