Announcement

**Draco aka Se7eN** · August 13, 2001, 18:19

I say they Put EVERY CIVILIZATION, COUNTRY, NATION, OR RACE IN THE GAME ! ! !

**DarkCloud** · August 13, 2001, 18:42

Originally posted by joseph1944

Try 376 year + a few. The Aztec and Inca were around for 220 to 240 years each.

Those are South American Indians... I was not talking about them. They accomplished all the things necessary for a civilization. The North Indians were more like polite, nice Mongols (IE nomads; although some built cities; Anasazi, Mound Builders) who had no cities to conquer.

The Iroquois was, they had Six tribes in the League.

True, but they only formed after Europeans came, and they did not exist long at all.

The White Man did not care about their clout. The Indians had two choice. Move away or stay and died. The White Man was going to take their land either way.

Precisely why they don't need to be in the game.

**joseph1944** · August 13, 2001, 19:16

Originally posted by DarkCloud

Those are South American Indians... I was not talking about them. They accomplished all the things necessary for a civilization. The North Indians were more like polite, nice Mongols (IE nomads; although some built cities; Anasazi, Mound Builders) who had no cities to conquer.

The Iroq. lived in what is now upper New York State. They built long houses with wood. They even frame their houses before coving it with hids.

True, but they only formed after Europeans came, and they did not exist long at all.

Their Civ. started before 1400 AD and survived until 1779 when Gen George Washington order them destroyed.

Precisely why they don't need to be in the game.

I belived other wise.

**joseph1944** · August 13, 2001, 19:20

Originally posted by Draco aka Se7eN
I say they Put EVERY CIVILIZATION, COUNTRY, NATION, OR RACE IN THE GAME ! ! !

Yes, Yes, Yes This post I can live with. Draco Very, Very Good.

**Draco aka Se7eN** · August 13, 2001, 19:49

Look lets face it, People are stupid, a person is smart, People are stupid, its that simple. Now lets all lean back in are chairs or whatever and think about how much fun Civ 3 will be : Drool : Gargle : Cough : Clears throat : ahhh : Closes eyes and falls asleep right there in his chair continuing to drool.....................

Gargle (COUGH ) a hem

I think Firaxis knows that it cant please everyone, i think the wises thing they can do is to make it easy or at least possible for those of us who care to be able to edit and creat our own civs.

HORAY ! !

Now if you will excuse me i will snooze off into slumberland

where i can attack engineers with impi in the 21st century and laugh till im insane.

**Waku** · August 13, 2001, 20:41

Originally posted by SerapisIV
Spain was just an imperialist country that picked on the Native Americans who never had a chance.

At least they had the chance of survive us. Your puritanisn didn't give them that chance. That's why you have to go to Mexico to look for indians to make your cowboys movies.

**Waku** · August 13, 2001, 20:41

double post

**Draco aka Se7eN** · August 13, 2001, 21:28

At least they had the chance of survive us. Your puritanisn didn't give them that chance.

Ok im sorry but this is Hilarious

CHANCE ! ! ! HA

I think a gentlemen by the name of Cortez would disagree with you. I do believe that was his name.

Thanks to this joly fellow we have the privlige of not experiancing the culture of the aztecs. Atleast i think its all gone, sure their might be a few who pass the culture in the realitive family but no real nation.

Now i must admit that i probably would have done the same if i were in his shoes and seen the only imaginable atrocities that were commited. But non-the-less you think he could of let SOME OF THE PEOPLE LIVE ! ! !

But Noooooo

Look its simple, people are stupid but a person is smart.

Listen to what i say, i am wiser than you think.

**joseph1944** · August 13, 2001, 21:32

Originally posted by Waku

At least they had the chance of survive us. Your puritanism didn't give them that chance. That's why you have to go to Mexico to look for Indians to make your cowboys movies.

I could go into a long post on what the Spanish did to the Indians of North, Central and South America, but I will not. Let's say the European kill as many Indians as they could to take everything from them.

**Tingkai** · August 13, 2001, 22:04

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that a country was always strong just because it is strong today.

Kc7mxo wrote: ?I don't think that any of the tribes/nations west of the missippi really fit the bill. Most of them were nomadic because of the area they lived.?

That?s an odd comment coming from someone in Washington. Native Americans along the Pacific coast had a highly developed culture and were not nomadic.

DarkCloud wrote: ?They were never all united. At best they should all be lumped into one group "Native Americans.? And: ?They never had political clout and only today have any because people 'feel sorry' for taking advantage of their anscestors.?

Well if you admit they were not united then why would you lump them into a single groups. The various native nations were separated by language and lifestyle. Some were nomadic. Some were farmers. Some were relatively rich with extensive time for the arts, others were poor.

Native Americans on the east coast of North America held the balance of power until the American revolution. If you look at the history of that time, the Europeans were battling among themselves to get native allies. The Brits defeated the French largely because the Iroquois league defeated the French native allies.

The Iroquois league also served as the blueprint for the U.S. constitution. The league had six nations, each controlling their own domestic policy, but united against outsiders. The Americans would use a similar division of power between state governments and the feds.

As well, the Iroquois voting system served as a model for American democracy.

As for the Europeans, they did not have world power until the 19th century. In the 17th and 18th century, China was one of the most civilized places on earth.

I've always found it interesting that countries develop great empires for a couple of hundred years and then decline; just like the AI civs that grow large, only to be destroyed by the human player.

**genghisvick** · August 13, 2001, 22:13

Originally posted by SerapisIV
Well, this thread is just an invitation for spam, and I hosetly don't give it much of a chance for surviving a few posts before the mods step in, but here's an attempt at an educated answer

The US is currently the single greatest economic and military power in the world and has been at least economically the most powerful for almost a century, the military power is debatable for during the Cold War years. This power will remain for at least the near-future as well. It'll be a good 15-20 years before there is another serious challenger for the "most powerful" nation title. In the Civ games, most of the nations were built on conquest or made famous by war, why then exclude the nation who has been the most powerful nation for longer then the Alexander the Great even lived?

The Americans have created a culture that is strong and vibrant, whether you like it or hate it, the American culture is rapidly influxing itself into other nation's cultures as well (blue jeans and McDonalds anyone?) Civ3 is making a big push for culture, and American culture is so strong that other countries are just trying to keep it out (look at the French trying to outlaw Americanized French words)

When you look at civilizations the Americans are also a mix of everyone. America consists of immigrants from every part of the world. In essence then, America is a summation of all the past civilizations and cultures all in one place. If only for that reason, then America should be included.

What I think the main problem with people against America is the same problem as the Civ2 AI. You're big, we hate you. Simplistic, but probably closer to the truth then people will admit.

edit: changed a paragraph for clearer reading

great post, I agree with you 100% that the Americans should be included.

**genghisvick** · August 13, 2001, 22:13

Originally posted by SerapisIV
Well, this thread is just an invitation for spam, and I hosetly don't give it much of a chance for surviving a few posts before the mods step in, but here's an attempt at an educated answer

The US is currently the single greatest economic and military power in the world and has been at least economically the most powerful for almost a century, the military power is debatable for during the Cold War years. This power will remain for at least the near-future as well. It'll be a good 15-20 years before there is another serious challenger for the "most powerful" nation title. In the Civ games, most of the nations were built on conquest or made famous by war, why then exclude the nation who has been the most powerful nation for longer then the Alexander the Great even lived?

The Americans have created a culture that is strong and vibrant, whether you like it or hate it, the American culture is rapidly influxing itself into other nation's cultures as well (blue jeans and McDonalds anyone?) Civ3 is making a big push for culture, and American culture is so strong that other countries are just trying to keep it out (look at the French trying to outlaw Americanized French words)

When you look at civilizations the Americans are also a mix of everyone. America consists of immigrants from every part of the world. In essence then, America is a summation of all the past civilizations and cultures all in one place. If only for that reason, then America should be included.

What I think the main problem with people against America is the same problem as the Civ2 AI. You're big, we hate you. Simplistic, but probably closer to the truth then people will admit.

edit: changed a paragraph for clearer reading

great post, I agree with you 100% that the Americans should be included. That would be like not including the Romans, America is a power unmatched in the world today and it looks like its gonna be that way for awhile.

**genghisvick** · August 13, 2001, 22:14

Re: I wonder why Americans....

Originally posted by Uffty
...are set in as a Civilization in this Game ?

I think the only reason they are in, is because Americans are making it.

I know most of you are americans, sorry btw, but in fact your "civ" instead of the spanish or portuguese sounds kinda very "national-proud" of the developers, since you are mostly european, asian and african natives.

Americans are not really a Civ, they are an independent colony, in historian view.

So I am not trying to be mean or something, but i want to have this explained.

I know most of you americans dont know where Europe or Africa is, neither do most of you know, that America has borders, but do you really think they have a bigger "cultural" aspect as the Spanish ??

Remember: Los Angeles was actually spanish...

I dont get your way of "we are the best"....its just a game!

Be honest and dont be arrogant. I love my german culture and I'm really happy we are in the game!

Comments from educated minds ?

You would rather have the spanish or portuguese than the worlds only remaining superpower?

**tniem** · August 14, 2001, 01:38

Originally posted by joseph1944
I believe Sid and Firaxis will make that decision.

Haven't they already? In the civ of the week it says what civs are to come and Native Americans are not listed.

Am I missing something?

**joseph1944** · August 14, 2001, 02:26

Originally posted by tniem

Haven't they already? In the civ of the week it says what Civs are to come and Native Americans are not listed.

Am I missing something?

Not really. In this game the Iroquois are representing the Native American as the Sioux did in Civ 2.