I wonder why Americans....

[connorkimbro]

Aye wood respawned but aye dont reed to gud, 'cause ahm an amerrikan.

[El hidalgo]

It always baffles me when people post that "America is not a civ." That's ridiculous. I'm just going to make some points at random here.

First, you are confusing "civilization" and "race" or "language." That's like saying the French aren't a proper civ because they speak a dialect of Latin. And that leads to another point: origin is irrelevant. So the US started out as a colony: so what? France started out as a region of the Roman Empire. Carthage was a Phoenician colony. It doesn't matter that Los Angeles was originally a Spanish settlement. Do you consider Marseille a Greek city? How about Istanbul? Is New York a Dutch city? Is that what people think of when think of New York -- the Dutch? Samarkand reached its apogee under the Mongols (Tamerlane). Los Angeles reached its apogee under the Americans.

That leads to culture: America's culture had and continues to have undeniable impact on the world, and it is undeniably unique. New forms of art (cinema, rock music, jazz, blues) and architecture (the first buildings with non load-bearing walls, which permitted skyscrapers) were developed or brought to fruition here; America contributed great artists, writers, poets, scientists, inventors, entrepreneurs, and architects to world culture; American political institutions are admired and adopted around the rest of the world. The US is the most powerful country in the world (military power, however evanscent, is probably the only criterion according to which the Mongols would be considered a civ), as well as the richest -- richer than Carthage, China, Spain, or England during their golden ages.

I am forced to question: just what do you mean by a civ? About the only thing you can't say about Americans is that we've been around a long time, and that we have a unique language (though the English might disagree ), and we are not a homogenous people (but that in itself is another great thing about America: its practically a world unto itself, with large populations of almost every group of people in the world).

I certainly don't mean to suggest that America is better than everyone else, and I don't want to appear arrogant (I'm not), but you put me in a position where I am forced to assert the great things about America. I am only trying to prove a point. When historians review the record in 1000, 2000 years, you can be sure America will play a large part in their analysis. Can you imagine a history of the 20th century that excluded America, and that credited all American achievements to the English? It would be farcical.

It's also a bit insulting to claim that Americans don't know where Africa and Europe are, but moreover it's utterly unfathomable that you could make that claim of anyone who plays civ, whatever their national origin...

[joseph1944]

I look up the word Civilization in the dictionary and we fit all description of that word. So we are a Civ. Around the world young people want our music, our clothes, our look, so we must be doing some thing right.
The other American who posted here did a real good job at it.

[Phutnote]

I think he has a point, but it applies to virtually all the civs in the game.

The term civilization doesn't refer to a nation specifically. If the literal definition were to apply, Western Civilization might be one civ. China would probably still constitute a distinct entity, but the Iroquois certainly wouldn't.

They'd be part of the aboriginal civilization, just as the aztecs were a part of mesoamerican civilization, which would include everyone from the Maya to the Toltecs.

All of these nations developed in the same region, built off each others cultures, science, and technology. They are intimately related, at very least closer than they are to, say, Western civilization.

I suppose you could divide Europe into the Anglo-Saxon civilization, the Mediterranean civilization, and so on, if you really wanted to.

People often talk about how Russia was torn between Western civilization and Eastern civilization. It might be a kind of hybrid in game terms.

Pointing at America as being 'wrong' for being included but not pointing out that Japan and Korea, for example, are part of a greater Eastern civilization (nationalistic biases notwithstanding, both countries derived much from China, and the populations of Southeast asia are composed of immigrants from Southern China, who displaced the dark skinned aboriginals who were there before them (and are still in Australia).

In the end, it's just easier to pick representative nations of a particular civilization.

Where do you really draw the lines, anyway? The Teutons of Scandinavia colonized parts of Germany, France, and finally England. Should England and Germany be one civ? What about the vikings in Normandy? And what about mediterranean countries like france, spain, and italy, whose culture is derived in many ways from ancient Rome? They are an outgrowth. Perhaps they do not deserve to be in the game either.



Phutnote

[Laszlo]

Originally posted by Phutnote
China would probably still constitute a distinct entity, but the Iroquois certainly wouldn't.

They'd be part of the aboriginal civilization, just as the aztecs were a part of mesoamerican civilization, which would include everyone from the Maya to the Toltecs.

Phutnote, my American history techaer had always given me the impression that the Native Americans had distinct nations with borders, languages, diplomatic relations, wars, whathaveyou. As an example, I believe the Iroquois nation was at war with the Algonquin nation.

It was just that their civilizations' virtues and accomplishments were marginalized by the European settlers' technological edge. Perhaps because most immigrants relegated their culture to the place of godless savages that it was never preserved (or systematically destroyed for non-christian views). Because of this, and the relatively non-concrete way of living and few written records, we may never know how great their civilizations were.

[Kc7mxo]

Your history teacher certainly didn't lie to you, but by your own admission recorsd from that time from the point of view of the native americans are extremely scarce.

And its wrong to really group them in that way. Various groups lived various types of lives. Not all of them were nomadic.

But to place them in civlization as a civ, well, personally I don't think that any of the tribes/nations west of the missippi really fit the bill. Most of them were nomadic because of the area they lived, and nomadic nations simply cannot develop the leisure time to progress scientificly, which when you consider civivilaztions 1,2,3 focus, really is the defining idea of a nation.

The united states has existed as a seperate entity for over two hundred years. It has made significant developments in technology and has greatly influenced many other nations. And most critical, it is a single nation. Can that be said of the greeks? Certainly not. Even after alex they didn't stay a united whole for very long.

I think two hundred years is plenty, and the sheer influence the united states has produced makes it a worthy addition to civ.

But did they have to make one of our best presidents look so damn goofy? well, at least he ain't an ape. heh heh.

[Mister Pleasant]

Yes, we Americans are a civilization - we even have our own cultural identity.

In civ, I play the Americans about half the time - but I play them green and throw in some Canadian cities. After all, United Staters are merely southern Canadians.

[red_jon]

I think the Americans should be included as a civ - after all, who would revolt against the British?

[Gramphos]

America is probably in for the very same reason that Sid added it as a last minute change in Civ1: They need it to sell the game in the US.

(I just wonder what civ never made it to the shops in Civ1)

[Phutnote]

Laz, from my understanding it's perfectly possible for diffeerent elements of the same civilization to go to war with each other. The protestants and catholics fought, the semitic peoples fight each other, Iran and Iraq fight each other, the Greeks city states fought each other constantly.

In fact, the ancient Greek city states could be seen as each a separate civilization by the logic of the game, in which the US and Britain (not to mention Germany and the rest of Western Europe) are seen as separate civilizations.

The Iroquois constitute a separate nation within the same civilization as the other plains indians.

It all comes down to how literally and how strictly you want to interpret the term 'civilization'.

Phutnote

[Tventano]

(I just wonder what civ never made it to the shops in Civ1)

The Turks were excluded. They still were in the booklet but at the latest moment replaced by the Germans.

[DarkCloud]

The one civ that most certainly does NOT belong is the Native Americans (Red Indians)

They do not belong at all because 1. The Iroquis League existed maybe 50 years... 100 at the most.

2. They were never all united. At best they should all be lumped into one group "Native Americans"

3. They never had political clout and only today have any because people 'feel sorry' for taking advantage of their anscestors.

4. They were more a cooperative group than a civilization or a Communism.

Thus we should replace the NAmericans with either the Mongols or the Spanish, two much greater, better civilizations.

[Footie Mad]

Originally posted by Tventano


The Turks were excluded. They still were in the booklet but at the latest moment replaced by the Germans.

I remember reading the manual thinking, The Turks seem really cool I think i'll play them now, only to be disappointed by their nonexistance. Aaahh memories

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
The one civ that most certainly does NOT belong is the Native Americans (Red Indians)

They do not belong at all because 1. The Iroquois League existed maybe 50 years... 100 at the most.

Try 376 year + a few. The Aztec and Inca were around for 220 to 240 years each.

2. They were never all united. At best they should all be lumped into one group "Native Americans"

The Iroquois was, they had Six tribes in the League.

3. They never had political clout and only today have any because people 'feel sorry' for taking advantage of their ancestors.

The White Man did not care about their clout. The Indians had two choice. Move away or stay and died. The White Man was going to take their land either way.

Thus we should replace the NAmericans with either the Mongols or the Spanish, two much greater, better civilizations.

I believe Sid and Firaxis will make that decision.

[Blaupanzer]

This is an odd thread. Why do we have to choose between the civs? Why not include an editor and we can put them all in. If a "civilization" is defined as a body of people sharing a common heritage, culture, economy, scientific/religious structure, and politiclal understanding, then many different cultures and nationalities will qualify.

If we pit the civs againt each other, then let's be honest. 1)The Iroquois apparently were at their "civilization" longer and more successfully than the Germans. (They were not "Plains Indians," but were housed permanently in an agriculturallly-based society.) They did not have religious wars and did not burn their own citizens at the stake. They had a shared government for over 350 years, vice 150 for Germany so far. 2)Hungary was a successful state longer than Vienna has been a city. 3)Austria was a successful empire while "Germany" was still a concept. 4)Turkey (Seljuks, then Ottomans) had a longer peak in all four categories + heritage than any European "civilization" since then.

If origins count, then the French are really Germans. (Origin: Franks who overran and dispersed the Gauls, many of whom were also Germanic in origin.) As are the English. (Origin: Angles, Saxons, Normans, all people of Germanic background.) The Andalusians (Basque) seem to have a pure origin -- should we include them? Most of the peoples in Western and Northern Europe seem to have gotten there because someone else drove them out of their previous homes. Shouldn't the drivers be in the game? As the winners didn't have writing, we are forced to exclude them.

By any reasonable measure North America qualifies as a culture and a civilization, Spain qualifies as a major historical world power, and the Iroquois have as legitimate a claim as a ton of other civs to representation.