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There is a wonderful little program that tells you precisely how close you are to both the population requirement and the land plus coastal squares requirement for domination. I usually post a question about where it is and wait for Aeson to tell me since he is apparently the only one who ever remembers.
Originally posted by jshelr
There is a wonderful little program that tells you precisely how close you are to both the population requirement and the land plus coastal squares requirement for domination.
Thanks for the info, but I'll pass. I know too much about the game mechanics already.
Dominae
And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...
I still haven't even gotten to Communism.
I've gotten to the drudgery part, everyone's pissed at me, noone will trade me any of the tech to get me to Industrialisation and I'm falling further behind with every turn.
Gah.
"Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos
Well, I'm falling into the habit of reporting my AAR's piecemeal again, but I still have a lot of game left if I play it out to the end.
China - the big bad civ in my game, like others' - attacked me with Cavalry just before I entered the Industrial Ages and got (hopefully) Nationalism and the resulting riflemen. I organized a broad coalition against China (paying through the teeth) just to survivie without losses -- although this isn't an elimination game obviously, I dreaded the thought of losing a city which I then couldn't take back. With the discovery of Replaceable Parts, I felt pretty secure from Chinese aggression, particularly with a nice Russian and Persian buffer between my southwest outpost and the Chinese land forces .
The German Republic, despite being several techs behind and falling back further while managing only a 8 - 10 turn research rate, built ToE and then Hoover. Despite pre-builds (the OCN change made using the Palace as a pre-build very dicey and largely ineffective), I didn't actually finish Hoover before Babylon started building it also, and I never traded Atomic Theory or Electronics -- Babylon was a tech powerhouse. I missed Longevity out of concern for ToE and I think that was a mistake -- don't get me wrong, ToE was critical, but I underestimated the power of Longevity given that I would be playing out the game in Communism.
Upon the discovery of Refining, I learned the bad news (not wholly unexpected ). I traded for oil from Babylon just before Combustion, and in the meantime built up a fleet of Galleons and a few frigates. With Combustion came upgrades to Transports. On my march towards Motorized Transportation, virtually all cities focused on infantry and artillery but I was woefully behind on an invasion-strength force, and focused on infantry over artillery.
Originally posted by BRC
I was wondering if anyone made an assault on this with Infantry and Artillery, so that they could build Panzers by the time they had Motorized Transportation.
My plan was slightly different -- to research MT, go Communist, invade Babylon's Resource Island, take and hold it with infantry while a harbor was built (if necessary), and then secure the island with panzers while focusing my war effort on my homeland. I didn't have any idea what my tech rate would be under communism, and I wasn't willing to launch my infantry invasion only to find that panzer support was 25 turns away.
Babylon, at this time, was the tech leader by a mile -- they were a peaceloving democracy with multiple size 25+ cities, and had already entered the Modern Age. China had once again declared war on me just a few turns before, and I elected to leave most of my meager artillery force at home (10 of 14 arty's) as homeland defense. An MPP with Russia and an alliance with Persia kept the Chinese dogs at bay while I concentrated on Babylon's island. As Germany emerged from anarchy into communism, 4 transports carrying 28 infantry and only 4 artillery prepared to invade Resource Island from the west. On that very turn, just before my anarchy subsided and I was ready to declare war, I got the pop up that the Babs were building SETI! Ouch! I hoped that they hadn't upgraded too many infantry into mechs, and worried about taking Resource Island. Nonetheless, German forces invaded, landing on the westernmost tip of Resource Island, prepared to battle the visible Mech Infantries guarding Babylonian cities.
My forces succeeded in taking the Babylonian city with fewer losses than anticipated, and fortified both in the city and in the three surrounding tiles. The counterattacking forces, consisting mostly of infantry, a few mechs, cavalry and some guerillas (with the odd bowman thrown in), largely bounced off my wall of infantry fortified around my new prize. The harbor had been destroyed in the attack, and reconstruction would take 7 turns. German transports sailed back for reinforcements. My tech rate for Radio and Flight under communism, without deficit spending but with 70% research or so was +/-20 turns! Ouch!
Within 2 turns I felt the weight of an angry, large, and modern Babylonian military. Swarms of 15 - 20 bombers and fighters strafed my positions (helpfully bringng the conquered city down to 1 citizen -- it could only support 2 anyway, so I wasn't losing much in the way of shield production and couldn;t rush-build a harbor in any event given the city size). At least 6 distinct "transport with escort" groups could be seen ferrying troops to Resource Island, most of them full, but too often with a few MIs, a few infantry and several cavalry.
We were holding our own, but the Babylonians controlled both the air and the sea. I foolishly sent 3 destroyers east in the hopes of cutting off the escorted transport teams - forgetting that I was playing the AU mod. A few bombing runs and several cruise missles sank 2 destroyers before the could even engage - the third limped back to port but was sunk by a Babylonian submarine. The German trasport fleet made several "suicide" runs - embarking fully laden from a German port but exhausting movement points one tile short of the outpost on Resource Island. Troops could unload, but the transports themselves were then at the mercy of unseen submarines and Battleships moving in for the kill.
On the turn that a harbor was built on Resource Island, every city in the realm switched production to panzers. The harbor was destroyed in airstrikes on the next turn, but the interval was long enough to churn out (eventually) 13 or 14 panzers. The cycle repeated itself once more 7 turns later; in the meantime, the German forces on Resource Island held their own defensive positions while a strike force of 6 infantry took up positions in the mountains within panzer range from the next target. Ultimately, the panzers turned the tide and secured Resource Island, but only after a huge investment of shields, time, and effort. Even now (I am in the Modern Age) Resource Island is the subject of continual Babylonian landings -- our new air force has stemmed the bombing runs (several of our fighters are confirmed aces), and we are slowly reaching balance on the seas.
Our righteous actions have forced the Babylonians into a communist governement, but they are miles ahead technologically - they have built 2 tactical nukes (but not used any) -- Germany has just completed research on Ecology (22 turns) after wasting 4 research turns pursuing Computers -- Bismarck initially coveted MIs and a shot at the Internet, but then came to his senses -- upgrading the 16 attack panzers for 24 attack MA seems the right thing to do .
On the homefront, the Persians, after signing an MPP with Babylon, went to war with both Russia and Germany. Russia has been decimated and controls only a narrow strip of land from Moscow to the jungles to the west. Germany made peace with Persia rather than fight a two front war - Persia's time is coming, though. With Resource Island relatively secure, needing only the occassional replensihment of panzers and a few infantry, the German war machine turned on China. With surprising ease our panzer forces cut swiftly though lightly defended cities the Chinese had captured from the English, Russians and Persians. In the space of approximately 10 turns we Germans secured the former English lands west to Rome and east to the chokepoint south of Beijing. An additional 10 - 15 turns secured Shanghai (and Smith's & Newton's), Beijing (and the Pyramids, Copernicus', and the Hanging Gardens), a coastal city (and Magellan's) and just recently Tatung (and Sistine). The Chinese offensive will continue until a chokepoint to the west that once devided the Chinese and Aztec empires (the Aztecs having lkong since been eliminated).
Leaders have come fast and furious (I've rushed 3 battleships, a university, a few factories, a cathedral, etc.) and now with the Chinese conquest Germany enjoys free granaries and barracks throughout the land, maintenance-free markets, banks, stock exchanges, harbors and airports (haven't built a commercial dock yet), the contentedness-makers Sistine and Bach's (Bach's having been natively built), and the fastest navy in the world. Only the prosperous and powerful Babylonians and the technologically equal Persians present any sort of threat. The "balanced role-player" in me covets the Internet, but I will stick to the plan and get MA. I would say the game is over but for the winning, but the nuclear advantage of Babylon makes that call a bit early. We shall see.
Wow, exciting game Catt! I'm sure glad I didn't even attempt to grab Resource Island from the Babs (even though I managed to be the tech leader in my game). The Harbor/Panzer cycle is a humbling example in persistency; I would have given up within the first few rounds.
Dominae
And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...
I stayed away from this thread until I finally got to the good part. It's 1505 A.D. Persia just declared war (they wanted Motorized Transportation, yeah, right) as I was building up my Panzer armies to conquer them, so I just switched to Communism to take a few cities to calm them down. But more about my game later. First, let me make a few general comments based on the other games here.
NorMe experienced a freak game! The only reason why an AI would research Chemistry before Banking would be to avoid getting Education for the Great Library. Perhaps the tech leader among the AIs had the GL, so he chose the lower branch of the tree to avoid Education. If he finished his research before the other civs had to make their research choice, then the tech that the first civ researched becomes cheaper, and thus can be completed in fewer turns than Education, giving it a higher value. (Remember that each tech has a base value which is inversely proportional to theSo the other civs follow the GL civ on the lower branch. It could happen, but only if the AI that has the GL is programmed to avoid the tech that makes that Wonder obsolete. If that is the case, thumbs up to Soren.
As NorMe pointed out, the difference between Monarchy and Despotism in the AU mod was not great enough. I guess I overestimated the effect of the Despotism tile penalty. I still don't think the corruption reduction for Communism is unbalancing though. More about this when I finish my game.
The 50% increase in OCN did not make the Chinese get a domination victory, but at least they came close. I suspect that on smaller maps the AI will often be a domination threat, because the ratio of the optimal number of cities to the total number of tiles in the map goes down as the maps get larger.
Catt, I see now why the increased OCN was a problem for you. You use a 4-tile spacing between your cities in many cases. I increased my spacing for this game because I didn't want to have crippling corruption in Communism, but not to the level of your game. I'll say this again: I really like the increased OCN, not only because it enourages the AI to get more land, but because the FP delay increases the chance that the AI might actually place it somewhere other than right next to its capital. Also, the human can't take advantage of prebuilds and Palace jumps as soon, which also helps the AI.
laissez-faire, the reason for not giving settlers the airlift flag is twofold. First, each settler represents about 10,000 people. Second, it is an unnecessary change to the game. Settler micromanagement is rarely an issue.
The map is definitely the #1 reason for AI greatness. Now if we can get Firaxis to ship BRC with the standard PTW editor You did a great job setting up the game, BRC.
Originally posted by alexman
NorMe experienced a freak game!
Not entirely...
The only reason why an AI would research Chemistry before Banking would be to avoid getting Education for the Great Library. Perhaps the tech leader among the AIs had the GL, so he chose the lower branch of the tree to avoid Education. If he finished his research before the other civs had to make their research choice, then the tech that the first civ researched becomes cheaper, and thus can be completed in fewer turns than Education, giving it a higher value. (Remember that each tech has a base value which is inversely proportional to theSo the other civs follow the GL civ on the lower branch. It could happen, but only if the AI that has the GL is programmed to avoid the tech that makes that Wonder obsolete. If that is the case, thumbs up to Soren.
If you saw one of my posts, I did a lot of work to ensure that Rome and England(and Azteca) stayed in the game - albeit mostly so I wouldn't be the most attractive target - including giving away tech, luxuries, resources, etc. for free when necessary.
One of the things I did was to ensure that everyone had the techs that led toward Mil. Trad. as soon as I got them, even at the risk of Leo's.
I had the GLib, so I wanted to postpone Education, and while it worked a little, if I had it to do over again, I'd try to maintain my lead on the Mil. Trad. branch instead of giving it away.
However, it is possible to push the AI down Mil. Trad. fairly easily...I just wouldn't advise it in a game like this, where a tech lead can disappear faster than you can build a Temple in the Middle Ages.
"Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos
Dom for conceiving this evil plot.
Never before have I waited with baited breath to get to Industrialization for... Nationalism??? And Communism???
And BRC for the great map, even though I'm still working on Theory of Gravity and Magnetism. The upside-down Y you started us on was a huge stress-factor until I got my borders all locked up and filled the chokepoints as best I could - the goody settler on the SouthWest leg was essential for me.
Originally, I looked at all those luxuries and thought "WTF is this? What a cakewalk!"
Boy was I shocked. I almost wish I'd played Regent. Almost.
"Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos
Originally posted by Dominae
Wow, exciting game Catt! I'm sure glad I didn't even attempt to grab Resource Island from the Babs (even though I managed to be the tech leader in my game). The Harbor/Panzer cycle is a humbling example in persistency; I would have given up within the first few rounds.
It was kinda dull until then - but, yes, got pretty exciting with the switch to Communism.
I'm impressed that you were the tech leader! With my expansion stymied just south of the fork and no opportunity to gain more land via conquest, I just didn't have the population to compete. I prioritized libraries and universities, but still began to drop back after my Great Library became passe with Education (even with a bunch of university pre-builds going). Limited land combined with Babylon in relative peace, as a Democracy, did me in. Even before the switch to Communism, I was losing ground quickly. I think missing Smith's was a blow, as was a delay in acquiring banks. The upkeep definitely bit into my research budget.
Originally posted by alexman
Catt, I see now why the increased OCN was a problem for you. You use a 4-tile spacing between your cities in many cases. I increased my spacing for this game because I didn't want to have crippling corruption in Communism, but not to the level of your game. I'll say this again: I really like the increased OCN, not only because it enourages the AI to get more land, but because the FP delay increases the chance that the AI might actually place it somewhere other than right next to its capital. Also, the human can't take advantage of prebuilds and Palace jumps as soon, which also helps the AI.
It wasn't so much a problem as a surprise. I'd suggest that the next version of the ReadMe move the OCN increase from under the sub-heading "Changes to AI" -- although it mildly affected my early gameplan, no real problem. I missed a big chunk of the discussion on the Mod recently, and so wasn't up to speed.
I will say I'm not yet convinced of the benefit of the change, but haven't formed an opinion yet. I kind of like having the Palace pre-build being defanged (I could build my Palace more quickly than the Military Academy). Didn't we conclude (with Soren's input) that an increased OCN doesn't encourage more aggressive civs and in fact may encourage mor passivity -- that it just encourages keeping cities rather than razing after the OCN is reached?
Re: corruption -- a good discussion will be needed on the present incarnation of Communism after AU 203 -- Dominae and I were comparing stories in another thread (the one about rush building) and, I think both our views are the same -- that Communism is way better now (I think it may be too advantageous for the human, believe it or not). I want to play out the game and reflect before reporting back, but corruption is the absolute least of my worries in AU 203 so far.
Originally posted by alexman
NorMe experienced a freak game! The only reason why an AI would research Chemistry before Banking would be to avoid getting Education for the Great Library. Perhaps the tech leader among the AIs had the GL, so he chose the lower branch of the tree to avoid Education. If he finished his research before the other civs had to make their research choice, then the tech that the first civ researched becomes cheaper, and thus can be completed in fewer turns than Education, giving it a higher value. (Remember that each tech has a base value which is inversely proportional to theSo the other civs follow the GL civ on the lower branch. It could happen, but only if the AI that has the GL is programmed to avoid the tech that makes that Wonder obsolete. If that is the case, thumbs up to Soren.
I thought this was the case. If it was then the Oracle would have been the wonder concerned.
The trouble is that I tested it and could find no such effect.
I made the archer the same as the spearman, moved everything else from the starting techs and made a scenario where a civ had a wonder that went obsolete with warrior code. When I played that civ, the science advisor would suggest warrior code instead of the apparently identical bronze working. Even as a different civ on debug mode, they would start building an archer after the appropiate time had elapsed.
Originally posted by alexman
Catt, I see now why the increased OCN was a problem for you. You use a 4-tile spacing between your cities in many cases. I increased my spacing for this game because I didn't want to have crippling corruption in Communism, but not to the level of your game.
Originally posted by alexman in another thread
Sorry for continuing off-topic, but Catt, as I said in the spoiler thread, I am amazed to see your really high city spacing. You have relatively few cities for the land area of your empire. Those are the conditions where the communal corruption model shines. In my game, I immediately started razing cities instead of keeping them because I wanted to still be able to produce a 100-shield Panzer in two turns in my core (and because I have not been building happiness improvements, so my clulture is bad, but that's another issue).
[BTW the OCN change in the AU mod does not affect corruption. The only effect is to the # of cities you need to build your FP].
So now I'm confused. I did usually space my cities 3 tiles apart, sometimes 4 tiles (for clarity, a unit with one movement point, moving on roads, could often move from city to city or just one tile short of the next city). Is that high city-spacing? And, you increased your spacing, but not to my level (so were you packing them really tight then)?
I don't know if it is simply the reduction in corruption for Communism under the AU Mod, or whether something inadvertant has happened with the OCN changes, or whether I'm just confused because I almost never go communist. But I am pretty sure that I am up to about 30 - 35 cities or so, and corruption is a nuisance at best. Unless I'm mistaken, wouldn't 30 cities under an unmodified communism, on a standard map at Emperor level, produce some pretty unhappy levels of corruption? I should really post some screenshots (and I think Dom is going to do the same with his AAR) but I'm at work until this evening.
I prefer to think of city spacing in terms of tile overlap between any two cities. You can have a 4-tile spacing with zero-3 tiles of overlap. You can have a 3-tile spcing with 2-6 tiles of overlap. I usually space my cities with 3-5 tiles of overlap, depending on a number of factors. For this game I tried to have less overlap than usual.
When I was ready to start my attack, I had 17 cities and very little corruption (maybe 8-10%). After taking 4 Persian cities, my cities I had carefully micromanaged to have just over 50 shields production needed to have some tiles mined to compensate for corruption. Very annoying!
I'm sure we all experienced the same thing. There might be some rounding effects from reducing the slider % and reducing the OCN% to compensate, but I tested Communism with the mod before this game and the only change is to the flat communal corruption, not to the OCN-related corruption.
In any event, even if it makes Communism better, this change needs to go (and it has, in v1.15), because it's not possible to have it without making Monarchy identical To Despotism in terms of corruption.
Just want to say:
* GREAT JOB, BRC!!
* The AU Mod is insane... yeah, starting terrain matters hugely (again, kudos to BRC), but I've only played one game like this before (the Egyptian Mess, for those who remember... see below).
* I'm around, and reading the reports / AARs with baited breath! Catt's blew me away!
* I've been playing this since last weekend... it's tough!! As usual, I've been in a few more knock-down-drag-out fights than most. I'll do a proper AAR, with some good screenshots, I promise.
I wish I knew then (the Egyptian Mess) what I'm learning now... Communism kicks ass when you really need it.
Papa knew best.
The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.
I just finished this game last night, and wow, what a game! I've never had this much fun with a Industrial/Modern war, ever!
A quick recap from where I left off: the year is 1300AD, I'm keeping the Chinese at bay with an Infantry blockade, and there are 2 turns to go for Refining. My game plan at this point is:
Refining-> Mass Production -> Motorized Transportation -> Win
Unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure about how best to put this plan into action. My Republic is doing really well, I have all relevant improvements up to Stock Exchanges in my core cities, and I'm trying to gauge when the best time to switch to Communism will be. Should I research Radio first, hitting the Modern age and inching my way to MIs? Or take even longer and get MAs before taking on the world?
The arrival of Refining throws all my planning out of whack: the German empire cannot exploit even one source of Oil. I'm thus put into a Catch-22: if I wage war to get Oil, I need to be in Communism, which means I'm extending the time to MT; but if I put off obtaining Oil, I will not be able to build Panzers by the time I get MT. Furthermore, the other civs are getting mighty close to Replaceable Parts, which means my conquests will be that much more difficult (tough life, I know). I decide to make my tech lead as big as possible before attacking, so I let the Oil problem be for now and concentrate on Mass Production.
The Chinese sign a peace treaty with Persia, and eventually grow bored of running their Cavalry into my Infantry armies and make amends with me too. So I'm free to build and research for now, but I just know the Persians will be on my back soon, since they have no one else to pick on (the Chinese-Persian war was of my own doing).
Sure enough, in 1390AD, while I'm focusing on Commercial Docks, the Persians declare war. I immediately sign a ROP and Alliance with China (for The Corporation) in order to get them fighting again (always a good thing). ROP and RRs were a dream on this map. Because I could so effectively block unit movement (due to the chokepoints), I could essentially dictate when and where the AIs were going to fight. At some points it felt as though I was fighting with the Chinese forces in addition to my own!
The great thing about RRs is that you get to see an entire AI's attack force (total military units minus city defense units) the turn after they declare war. I guess this is only great if you're prepare for the onslaught. The Persians show up with 37 Riflemen, 32 Cavalry and 2 Infantry.
Initially, I'm as usual unprepared. But then I'm aided by the awesome power of the Draft ability. In 2 turns my army triples in size, as I conscript 40 Infantry. Between these guys, my 20 pieces of Artillery and the Chinese forces, I reduce the Persian army to 1 Longbowmen and 1 Immortal in 4 turns. Fun, fun!
.
I hoped that they hadn't upgraded too many infantry into mechs, and worried about taking Resource Island. Nonetheless, German forces invaded, landing on the westernmost tip of Resource Island, prepared to battle the visible Mech Infantries guarding Babylonian cities. 
You did a great job setting up the game, BRC.
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