Apolyton University Mod (PTW version)

[punkbass2000]

I think we'd be better off with the OCN change, at least o nthe higher levels. That way the tech rate will be high enough anyway, as well as creating Killer AI.

[Theseus]

25% ?

[Catt]

Re: Report from the lab

Originally posted by alexman
So what do you think? Should we make the change? Is the human better off dealing with many smaller AI civs and face a faster research rate, or dealing with with fewer, bigger AI civs at slower research rate? I am inclined to say that the former case is presents a greater challenge, but it depends heavily on the map and starting locations.

Thanks for testing I think its worth a few more tests. I am inclined to agree that smaller, tech-robust civs may present a larger challenge due to the "come-from-behind" and "help-the-trailers" concepts built into the game, as well as the AI advantage of the AI-AI trade rate. This assumes (1) that the increased OCN does present a tech slowdown (over a series of games), and (2) the tech slowdown can be avoided by the human (!). If the slowdown is worldwide (including the human), then I think the increased OCN makes sense. [Did you play these as OCC's? so it is tough to gauge the possible human tech rate?]

I'b be inclined to play an AU game or two (or a couple of side games) to get a sense of the effects across a larger number of samples and in a "regular" game environment.

Catt

[alexman]

Catt, the worldwide slowdown affects the human, just because he can no longer be helped by the AI's research as much. Otherwise the OCN itself does not directly change the tech rate. Since corruption stays the same, the only reason for the slowdown is the fact that the AI is more often at war.

By the way, I didn't do any research in these OCC games. I just plopped a city on a one-tile island, produced wealth, and had the enter key pressed until 1750 A.D.

I think Theseus' suggestion of increasing the OCN by 25% makes sense. Soren made the AI stop expanding at the OCN mainly for corruption reasons. This behavior has not changed since the game first came out, but what has changed is the amount of corruption in the game. After the patches, police stations increase the OCN by 25%, but the AI does not consider this when deciding when to stop expanding. It makes sense to have the AI aim for 25% more cities than pre-patches.

[Catt]

Originally posted by alexman
Catt, the worldwide slowdown affects the human, just because he can no longer be helped by the AI's research as much.

[. . . ]

I think Theseus' suggestion of increasing the OCN by 25% makes sense. Soren made the AI stop expanding at the OCN mainly for corruption reasons. This behavior has not changed since the game first came out, but what has changed is the amount of corruption in the game. After the patches, police stations increase the OCN by 25%, but the AI does not consider this when deciding when to stop expanding. It makes sense to have the AI aim for 25% more cities than pre-patches.

25% would be a good test as well. I'm all for it.

Just to be clear on my point about tech rates, though -- in one sense it doesn't matter if the world is using infantry or tanks in 1750 AD -- what matters is whether or not the human has a greater chance at a decisive tech lead under the modified or unmodified game. If the human gains no appreciable tech advantage over the AI's as a whole, then I think the OCN experiment might actually go a step or two towards creating a smaller number of "Killer AI's" which pose a real threat to the human (which I hope will be an improvement) rather than a larger number of robust AI's which individually prevent little threat in the late game.

Catt

[alexman]

Originally posted by Catt

If the human gains no appreciable tech advantage over the AI's as a whole, then I think the OCN experiment might actually go a step or two towards creating a smaller number of "Killer AI's"

As you say, further tests in a number of different map settings is required to say for sure. But my guess is that at higher difficulty levels (where the human relies on the AI to at least help him out doing the research) the human research will slow down with the AI in the modded OCN. At easier levels (where the human does most of the research), the AI wars will increase the gap.

Here are two examples of how I imagine the effects of the increased OCN:

Scenario 1: The human has been playing catch-up all game, and finally is at the position to attack. Catching up will actually be easier with the increased OCN (assuming he manages to stay out of the wars), but it will be tougher to defeat the surviving AIs. So this scenario is probably tougher with the increased OCN.

Scenario 2: The human has been among the strongest civilizations, and is ready to pull ahead for good. With the higher OCN, assuming that he survived the increased AI aggression, it will be easier to win the game, because the AI will be further back in tech. But it will be less likely that the human will be left alone to build and do his research unmolested. So it's hard to say if it would be more of a challenge.

[Catt]

I was imagining the same scenarios. If the human can avoid warfare (or at least allow it to only slighty impinge on other growth needs), the increased OCN may in fact make it easier. Certainly worth testing though

Catt

[joncnunn]

I think the increasing OCN would also increase the number of cities that needed built before the FP could be built.

In a recent game on a tiny map on Emperor level, I was running a very well empire with 10 cities (5 adjoining rivers, 8 coastal). There was hardly any corrpution / waste at all when the FP was completed. (Only mod was double hit point.)

Now if the OCN had been increased to 21 I wouldn't have been able to build the FP, and so would have had more corruption than current current rules.

[alexman]

You're right that the FP can be built as soon as you get half the OCN, but most players build it much later than that anyway.

As for your example, on a tiny map (OCN=12) you can build your FP as soon as you get 6 cities. Increasing the OCN by 25% to 15, would mean you could build the FP at 7 or 8 cities. Not such a big deal.

[Jaybe]

alexman, instead of increasing OCN by 25%, how about changing it so you can get a better handle on the affects and then tone it down as appropriate.

Go overboard, I say. One Hundred Percent increase.

(I have been using 50% increase for several months in my own (non-AU) mods, but with the purpsoe of corruption modification).

[alexman]

Jaybe, thanks for the suggestion, but I think I already did go overboard with the 50% increase. See the OCC experiment in the previous page. The AI was at war for almost the entire game.

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by alexman
Jaybe, thanks for the suggestion, but I think I already did go overboard with the 50% increase. See the OCC experiment in the previous page. The AI was at war for almost the entire game.

I would highly recommend that you run the experiment a few more times. Just off the top of my head, I wouldn't assume that a higher OCN would lead to a more aggressive AI. Perhaps the opposite, in fact.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis


I would highly recommend that you run the experiment a few more times. Just off the top of my head, I wouldn't assume that a higher OCN would lead to a more aggressive AI. Perhaps the opposite, in fact.

Why is that?

On a larger point, care to share anything off the top of your head that might contribute to AI civs being more aggressive about exploiting a relative advantage? Just pushing the aggressiveness sliders up makes every civ a Bismarck / Shaka psycho that attacks all the time - with or without advantage. We'd sure like to stimulate a slightly more aggressive AI, but one that employs a "smart aggressiveness." 'Course, I guess making every aspect of the AI "smarter" is the whole trick, isn't it?

Thanks for continuing to check in on us!

Catt

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis
I would highly recommend that you run the experiment a few more times. Just off the top of my head, I wouldn't assume that a higher OCN would lead to a more aggressive AI. Perhaps the opposite, in fact.

Why?

Perhaps because the AI remains in its peaceful "REX" phase (or something like it) until the OCN is reached. Once its empire is fully "fleshed out", it enters "production" or "military" phase, and looks for reasons to pick fights. Thus, the OCN and AI aggressiveness may be inversely related (at least indirectly). Just a guess, though.


Dominae

[alexman]

This for sure is true if the AI is under the OCN and has room to expand. But is this the case if it runs out of room too? It certainly didn't look like it, but I'll try again on a different map.

PS. Any help to get more data would be appreciated.