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Apolyton University Mod (PTW version)

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  • ROF 4?

    This could give you navy killer air units.

    You know, ships and land units on open have just defense of 8-14 (and up to 4hp).

    P.S.
    And could make Arty adn RA a little bit weak.

    And ROF 5 Cr. Missiles are way too good.

    Comment


    • Even though airplanes are navy killers in reality, maybe you're right in terms of game balance. Still thinking about it...

      Perhaps since ships do not get big defensive bonuses, we should increase their attack and defense strengths (say, by 50%) so that they are still balanced compared to each other, but stronger when defending against air units.

      OTOH, this is starting to become too much change from stock.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by alexman
        OTOH, this is starting to become too much change from stock.
        Starting to get that snowball-rolling-down-a-mountain felling?
        "Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos

        Comment


        • Okay, my galley slaves are fine with it ....
          But I miss my suicide galleys
          Sigh. I suppose it was an unbalancing exploit.
          aka, Unique Unit
          Wielder of Weapons of Mass Distraction

          Comment


          • You can still make suicide galley runs if you want. It's just more risky because they don't get as far in the ocean.

            Comment


            • Please Comment!

              The following group of changes does not directly help the AI, and is by no means minimal change from stock, but definitely adds strategic depth. As I see it, the changes are all-or-nothing, as keeping one change and not another would unbalance the game.

              So the question is, do we keep the changes, or not? Or does anyone have any other suggestions? Please comment!

              Code:
              ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          APOLYTON UNIVERSITY MOD 1.13 BOMBARD UNIT CHANGES
              ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Deviating from its goal to make as few changes as possible, the AU mod 
              makes several changes to units with the bombard ability. This document
              attempts to justify those changes.
              ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              
              There are a few problems with the stock version of Civ3 when it comes to
              bombard units.
              
              1) Ironclads, Destroyers, and even Frigates, are more cost-effective 
                 bombard units than Battleships.
              2) There is no reason to build Stealth Fighters, as two of them cost the 
                 same as one Stealth Bomber, but do less damage and have double 
                 maintenance costs.
              3) Carriers are relatively weak for their cost, because airpower is not 
                 lethal to ships
              4) It is generally more effective to build ground units than to invest 
                 in bombard units.
              
              
              SOLUTIONS
              ---------
              
              [B]We increase ROF of Battleships and AEGIS by 1[/B]. This balances the bombard
              cost-effectiveness of naval units, as shown in the following table:
              
                       ===ORIGINAL===
                       Unit       Str  ROF  Cost Dmg(HP) Value(%BB)
                       -------------------------------------------------------
                       Frigate     2    2     6   0.33    125
                       Man-O-War   3    2     6   0.46    173
                       Ironclad    4    2     8   0.57    161
                       Destroyer   6    2    12   0.75    141 
                       Battleship  8    2    20   0.89    100
                       AEGIS       4    2    16   0.57     80
              
                       ===AU MOD===
                       Unit       Str  ROF  Cost Dmg(HP) Value(%BB)
                       -------------------------------------------------------
                       Frigate     2    2     6   0.33     83
                       Man-O-War   3    2     6   0.46    115
                       Ironclad    4    2     9   0.57     95
                       Destroyer   6    2    12   0.75     94 
                       Battleship  8    3    20   1.33    100
                       AEGIS       4    3    16   0.86     80
              
                       Tables assume a 10-strength defender
                       Value = Percentage of cost-effectiveness of battleship.
              
              The problem is that these increased ROF values make Battleships equally
              effective bombard units as Bombers. As a result, if no other changes 
              are made, the AI seems to build less Bombers. 
              
              To maintain balance between air and naval units, [B]we increase the ROF of 
              all air units by 1[/B]. This makes Bombers more effective than Battleships
              again, and all bombard units more effective combined-arms elements.
              
              The new problem is that air units are now too powerful against naval 
              units, which do not get terrain or fortification defensive bonuses. The 
              solution is to [B]increase the defense strength of all naval units by 50%[/B].
              To keep naval combat unchanged, [B]we increase the attack strength of naval
              units by 50%[/B] also.
              
              The increased defense of naval units almost offsets the increased ROF of 
              Battleships and air units, so the net result is more effective bombard
              units against ground troops.
              
              The ROF changes makes fighters a moderate bombard threat to weak units. 
              Still, Jet Fighters are not as cost-effective bombard units as regular 
              Fighters, [B]so increase of their strength by 1[/B] to fix this problem. To
              establish fighters as a valid bombard unit, as opposed to being used
              strictly for Air Superiority, [B]add the lethal sea bombard ability to
              all fighters[/B]. In addition, [B]add the lethal land bombard ability to the
              F-15 and Stealth Fighter[/B]. Fighters are now effective units for killing
              weak targets, so [B]add the AI air bombard flag[/B] to all of them. This new
              ability makes it worth building Stealth Fighters in addition to Stealth 
              Bombers, and Carriers with Fighters become a naval offensive threat.
              
              The following table shows the cost-effectiveness of each air unit in 
              bombarding:
              
                       ===ORIGINAL===
                       Unit       Str  ROF  Cost Dmg(HP) Value(%Bbr)
                       -------------------------------------------------------
                       Fighter     2    1     8   0.17     16
                       Bomber      8    3    10   1.33    100
                       Jet Ftr     2    1    10   0.17     13
                       F-15        4    2    10   0.57     43 
                       St. Ftr     4    2    12   0.57     36
                       St. Bbr     8    3    24   1.33     42
                       Cruise     16    3     6   1.85    231*
                       Table assumes a 10-strength defender
              
                       ===AU MOD AGAINST GROUND===
                       Unit       Str  ROF  Cost Dmg(HP) Value(%Bbr)
                       -------------------------------------------------------
                       Fighter     2    2     8   0.33     23
                       Bomber      8    4    10   1.78    100
                       Jet Ftr     3    2    10   0.46     26
                       F-15        4    3    10   0.86     48*
                       St. Ftr     4    3    12   0.86     40*
                       St. Bbr     8    4    24   1.78     42
                       Cruise     16    4     6   2.46    231*
                       Table assumes a 10-strength defender
              
                       ===AU MOD AGAINST SHIPS===
                       Unit       Str  ROF  Cost Dmg(HP) Value(%Bbr)
                       -------------------------------------------------------
                       Fighter     2    2     8   0.24     21*
                       Bomber      8    4    10   1.39    100
                       Jet Ftr     3    2    10   0.33     24*
                       F-15        4    3    10   0.63     45*
                       St. Ftr     4    3    12   0.63     38*
                       St. Bbr     8    4    24   1.39     42
                       Cruise     16    4     6   2.06    247*
                       Table assumes a 15-strength defender to reflect naval changes
              
                       Str = Bombard Strength
                       ROF = Rate of fire
                       Cost = shield cost / 10
                       Dmg = expected damage in HP
                       Value = Percentage of cost-effectiveness of bomber.
                       * = lethal bombard

              Comment


              • With lethal bombard fighters, why would anyone build cruise missiles?

                Comment


                • As usual, I'm reticent to accept any changes that deviate significantly from stock Civ3.


                  Dominae
                  And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DaveMcW
                    With lethal bombard fighters, why would anyone build cruise missiles?
                    Why, does anyone build cruise missiles in stock Civ3?

                    But to try to answer your question, you need about six Jet Fighters (that cost 10 times as many shields) to do as much damage as one Cruise Missile. It's definitely worth it if the target is protected by Fighters on Air Superiority.

                    Comment


                    • I, like Dominae, am quite reticent to major changes in AU mod. But this might deserve a couple test games to prove my initial feeling...

                      --Kon--
                      Get your science News at Konquest Online!

                      Comment


                      • I did a quick comparison of the AU 1.12 mod and the stock rules in the modern age, and:

                        -> The AU mod AI builds air units with no problem. The same amount as with stock rules. This means that there is no need to increase the ROF of air units to 4, as I previously thought.

                        -> The AI still sometimes builds 7-6-1 Guerillas, even with 8-10-1 Infantry available. Why?

                        -> With 150% OCN, the AI actually won by domination on a tiny map, thus putting my OCC test to an end

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by alexman

                          -> The AI still sometimes builds 7-6-1 Guerillas, even with 8-10-1 Infantry available. Why?
                          You're sure these are builds and not upgrades?

                          Could it be some sort of cost or time-required "analysis" by the AI?
                          "Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos

                          Comment


                          • Unfortunately, I'm sure they were from scratch because I was in debug mode and knew what the AI was building at all times.

                            One solution would be to make Guerillas upgrade to Infantry (for 0 gold). This would mean that you can't build Guerillas unless you have no rubber.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by alexman


                              Why, does anyone build cruise missiles in stock Civ3?

                              But to try to answer your question, you need about six Jet Fighters (that cost 10 times as many shields) to do as much damage as one Cruise Missile. It's definitely worth it if the target is protected by Fighters on Air Superiority.
                              hi ,

                              those rockets are great to be put with six at the time , and joined by two tactical ones ( ) at a nuclear sub , .....

                              not to mention of the increased range , .....

                              anyway , its always worth it to have a couple on the block , certainly in modern times when a mech or mod armor army stands on your door , .......

                              have a nice day
                              - RES NON VERBA - DE OPRESSO LIBER - VERITAS ET LIBERTAS - O TOLMON NIKA - SINE PARI - VIGLIA PRETIUM LIBERTAS - SI VIS PACEM , PARA BELLUM -
                              - LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA - one shot , one kill - freedom exists only in a book - everything you always wanted to know about special forces - everything you always wanted to know about Israel - what Dabur does in his free time , ... - in french - “Become an anti-Semitic teacher for 5 Euro only.”
                              WHY DOES ISRAEL NEED A SECURITY FENCE --- join in an exceptional demo game > join here forum is now open ! - the new civ Conquest screenshots > go see them UPDATED 07.11.2003 ISRAEL > crisis or challenge ?

                              Comment


                              • The problem with the Guerilla->Infantry upgrade is that anything that is supposed to fall under the umbrella-category "Guerilla-upgradeable" now upgrades to Infantry if the civ has Rubber (for example, Medieval Infantry upgrade to Infantry). I don't think this was the intended use of Infantry (or Guerilla).

                                Maybe Guerillas build orders are hard-coded to accentuate the differences between stock Civ3 and PTW. Just a thought...


                                Dominae
                                And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

                                Comment

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