AU: A MOD for the curiculum

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Dominae
From an aesthetic standpoint, building a veteran navy for conquest only really comes around Frigates in my mind (forgetting the Vikings until Play the World). Not having veteran sea units to conduct invasions is annoying, but something I can definitely live without.

I think, the issue is not the lacking ability to build vet units. It is the lacking ability to upgrade the Galleys with Astronomy. It's pretty annoying to have 10 Galleys, that remain Galleys until I get Metallurgy, which is pretty late in my research order, due to wonders. Although it's not a very big deal, because Caravels are actually not faster than Galleys and carry just one more unit, but anyway. I don't want to have more, but better units, I simply skip Caravels now.

[lockstep]

My votes for version 1.04 of the AU mod:

• Remove the changes made to coastal fortresses and naval unit hitpoints. I especially didn't like the fact that I couldn't do ship upgrades without having saltpeter at some point. (In fact, this change is the only thing I don't like about the AU mod.)
• Don't change entertainers, the're powerful enough as they are now.
• Communism could need some boost - +100% worker efficiency like in v1.34 of player1's mod may be too much (even if this needs to be playtested), but +50% like in Democracy is a good idea IMO.

[nbarclay]

Dominae, I would regard the change as fine if there were a way to shift the ability to build veteran units to coastal fortresses without taking away harbors' ability to upgrade units. But because the "veteran" flag in the editor affects both, it can't be done.

Also, you're miscalculating when you say harbors have three abilities. The FIRST harbor on a land mass has three, but once one harbor is built, barring a blockade, additional harbors have no meaningful impact on trade. So that just leaves two roles: the food increase role and the naval role.

Now consider a corrupt area where a player knows he will never, ever build ships. With the coastal fortress change, if a player needs to upgrade ships in that area, he has to build (and probably rush) a coastal fortress that will be of absolutely zero use whatsoever (or at least no more use than current coastal fortresses) after the upgrade is complete. In contrast, with harbors, the pain of rushing an improvement to upgrade ships is mitigated (though still not entirely taken away) by the fact that the improvement does have an ongoing value as well. And that's not even getting into the issue of needing to upgrade galleys to caravels in a timely manner.

As for the fact that coastal fortresses are essentially useless in the standard game, I build city walls just as rarely (which is to say, never). And, for that matter, giving coastal fortresses the ability to build veteran naval units makes no more sense than giving city walls the ability to build veteran land units would. Both are defensive installations, and by definition are useful only if the city where they are built is attacked. Not that I mind the idea of making coastal fortresses more useful, but only if it can be done without upsetting the balance of other features of the game.

Nathan

[Dominae]

Sir Ralph and nbarclay, I find both your arguments compelling. I bet it shows that I've never really focused on the naval aspect of the game, focusing more on Pangea-type maps.

So, count my vote to change Harbors back to the way they used to be. However, can we do something to make Coastal Fortresses more useful? The City Walls example is a good one, except for the fact that once a city reaches size 6, Walls become obsolete automatically. I'll check the editor to see what could be done with Coastal Fortresses (just to offer suggestions).


Dominae

[Theseus]

I'm sold... the coastal fortress issue introduces in-game decisions that are to far away from stock. I vote (again) for reverting.

LET'S TALK ABOUT PRODUCTION!!!

[Dominae]

Could someone clarify the reasoning behind giving all naval units an extra hit point? The documentation says it's to "reduce randomness in naval combat", but I can't see why naval combat is any more or less random than ground combat. Why change one system and not the other?


Dominae

[lockstep]

A quick suggestion: We could boost the naval attack / naval power of coastal fortresses from 8 to 12, so that it becomes some kind of early immobile artillery.

(And a quick try to give a rationale: 'The cannons of these coastal fortresses were the biggest, most powerful ones of their time, and it was nearly impossible to move them from one city to another, given the bad condition of medieval roads.')

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Dominae
Could someone clarify the reasoning behind giving all naval units an extra hit point? The documentation says it's to "reduce randomness in naval combat", but I can't see why naval combat is any more or less random than ground combat. Why change one system and not the other?

This change was linked to the fact that veteran naval units were only available in the late middle age in v1.03 because of the changes made to coastal fortresses.

[alexman]

Originally posted by Dominae
Could someone clarify the reasoning behind giving all naval units an extra hit point?

The hit point bonus for naval units will be removed with the removal of the veteran flag for Coastal Fortresses.

The reasoning was that with CF required for veteran units we would get battles involving 3-HP units, which are too random. Naval units are generally more expensive than ground units, so we wanted to reduce the risk of a galley sinking a battleship. This is no longer a concern.

Lockstep, I'm afraid your suggestion would help only the human. I have never seen the AI build coastal fortresses (except with AU 1.03).

[Killerdaffy]

Originally posted by Theseus
LET'S TALK ABOUT PRODUCTION!!!

Seems like an issue worthy of a new thread. There is some basic research to be done, we might solicit input from Soren and/or some of the file wizards, etc.

[Theseus]

Did you see Bamspeedy's comments?

Should we start a new thread or revive the "AI greatness" one?

[lockstep]

Originally posted by alexman
The hit point bonus for naval units will be removed with the removal of the veteran flag for Coastal Fortresses.

Lockstep, I'm afraid your suggestion would help only the human. I have never seen the AI build coastal fortresses (except with AU 1.03).

It was only a quick suggestion that is very low on my modding priority list.

BTW, Alexman, what is your time-frame for finishing v1.04 of the AU mod? If it's more than a few hours, I'd have the chance to dig out some old ideas from other mods that are high on my priority list for a 'standard' mod. (If you want to release v1.04 rather soon but are still interested in additional ideas, I could do this 'research' for v1.05 of your mod.)

P.S.: Regarding player1's idea to make jaguar warriors upgrade to horsemen, I ask you NOT to include it in the next version of your mod - I think it's a very big change with mixed effects, just like the changes to coastal fortresses that will be removed now.

[Killerdaffy]

Yep, I think it sounds very encouraging. I'm for a new thread, not everybody who has information on this will want to read through ten pages of only partially related discussion. We should give some introduction, though and put in a link to the old one.

[alexman]

Originally posted by lockstep
BTW, Alexman, what is your time-frame for finishing v1.04 of the AU mod?

It will be out in time for AU 107, so there is no need to get it out today. I'm looking forward to hearing any fresh ideas that you may have for AU 1.04.

Regarding player1's idea to make jaguar warriors upgrade to horsemen, I ask you NOT to include it in the next version of your mod

You're right that it changes the ancient-age strategy for the Aztec player (needs horses instead of iron for a JW upgrade), but I actually like the idea. It seems like a more natural upgrade path. Are there other implications that I am missing?

[lockstep]

Originally posted by alexman
You're right that it changes the ancient-age strategy for the Aztec player (needs horses instead of iron for a JW upgrade), but I actually like the idea. It seems like a more natural upgrade path. Are there other implications that I am missing?

IMO, jaguar warriors are still useful at least in the early middle ages because they are mobile and REALLY cheap. Player1's original tweak to make them upgrade to riflemen instead of swordsmen therefore was a good solution IMO. A jaguar warrior - horseman upgrade will make jaguar warriors unavailable in the middle age because Horseback Riding is needed for era advancement. If you want to build jaguar warriors and swordsmen at the same time, but don't want to introduce additional upgrade paths, I suggest to make jaguar warriors upgrade to nothing.

Last but not least, I'm fairly sure that jaguar warriors (like standard warriors) will upgrade to the new medieval infantry in PtW (via swordsmen). You could make them skip swordsmen and directly upgrade to medieval infantry (so that they are available in the early middle age). No need to entirely change a UU's upgrade path.