AU: A MOD for the curiculum

[lockstep]

PtW is likely to have a large impact on the upgrade chains of swordsmen AND longbowmen. The AU mod has been very reluctant to change the upgrade chains of land units until now, so IMO there's little need to focus on that specific topic less than a month before PtW's release. If anything, I'd adopt player1's changes (swordsmen and longbowmen upgrade to riflemen) and view them as a nice temporary fix.

[lockstep]

Suggestions to v1.04 of the AU mod

For now, I'll assume that the following changes will be included in v1.04:[list=a][*]Changes to coastal fortresses and naval unit hitpoints made in v1.03 are removed[*]Communism gets worker rate of +50% or +100%[/list=a]After browsing the readme-txt's of some other mods, I suggest to adopt some additional changes in the AU mod. The items in the following list are structured in outline, reason and details, and the mods that include this feature (not necessarily the exact stats) are annotated. (LWC stands for 'Long Winded Changes Mod', PS for 'Patch Suggestion Mod'). Here goes:

1. Higher corruption for Republic [blitz]
   Makes switching from Republic to Democracy more attractive for non-religious civs
   Republic's corruption and waste is 'problematic' instead of 'nuisance'
2. Tweaked cost and maintenance for some improvements [blitz]
   Makes 'advanced' improvements a strategic choice instead of a must-have
   Bank has maintenance of 2 instead of 1
   Research Lab has cost of 240 instead of 200, maintenance of 3 instead of 2
   Manufacturing Plant has maintenance of 4 instead of 3
3. Reduced number of 'filler' technologies [blitz, noname]
   Makes research and trade of technologies slightly more of a strategic choice
   Hanging Gardens available with Polytheism instead of Monarchy
   Universal Suffrage available with The Corporation instead of Industrialization
   Artillery available with Steel instead of Replacable Parts
   Library available with Writing instead of Literature
4. Terrain defense bonus only for forest, jungle, hills and mountains [blitz]
   Slightly reduces 'odd' combat results
   Desert, plains, grassland, tundra, flood plain, coast, sea and ocean have defense bonus of 0 instead of 10
5. Reduced attack bonus against barbarians [blitz, LWC, PS]
   Makes barbarians more challenging at lower difficulty levels
   Attack bonus against barbarians from Chieftain to Deity is 200/100/50/50/0/0 instead of 800/400/200/100/50/0
6. Percentage of optimal cities rebalanced with regard to difficulty levels [PS]
   Makes corruption more manageable at lower difficulty levels
   Percentage of optimal cities from Chieftain to Deity is 150/120/100/90/80/70 instead of 100/95/90/85/80/70
7. More productive Jungles [balancer, blitz, LWC]
   Alleviates the handicap of starting positions near jungle
   Jungle yields 1 shield per turn instead of 0 (still cannot be mined)
8. Earlier availability of irrigation without fresh water [LWC]
   Alleviates the handicap of starting positions without access to rivers or lakes
   Irrigation without fresh water available with Engineering instead of Electricity
9. Generous 'turns per tech' limits [blitz, LWC, noname]
   Makes obtaining a technology lead a more feasible strategic choice
   Minimum research time in turns is 2 instead of 4
10. Symmetric cultural opinions, including an additional neutral level [blitz]
    Provides clearer information about culture ratios and resultant effects
    Impressed with: Lower threshold culture ratio 5:4 (125%) instead of 1:1 (100%)
    New cultural opinion 'on a par with': LT culture ratio 4:5 (80%), chance of succ. prop. 15%, resist. chance in. 65%, cont. 55%
    Unimpressed by: LT culture ratio 1:2 (50%) instead of 3:4 (75%)
    Dismissive of: LT culture ratio 1:3 (33%) instead of 1:2 (50%)
    Disdainful of: LT culture ratio 1:10 (lowest possible editor value) instead of 1:3 (33%)

IMO, every item of this list contributes to 'smoothing out the basic game' (see my sig), but I'm aware that the presented 'reasons' are rather keywords that need to be discussed further. Which is why I'd like to get some feedback.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by alexman
Good idea for preparing for PtW, SR.
But would the new Longbowmen require iron like Med. Infantry? If yes, then be prepared to see the ironless AI attacking pikemen and knights with - gasp - archers!
If they don't require iron, is their cost still balanced after the increase in defense?

I would it not let require iron and raise the cost to 5. This should be still affordable for both the AI and the human, and the upgrade path will be repeared. A 4.2.1 unit that costs 5 is not unbalanced, if we consider, that we let the 2.4.1 musketman also cost 5 and the 4.3.2 knight costs 7.

[player1]

Why just don't make Longbowmen which cost 30 shields like in PS MOD?

[Harovan]

And let the upgrade swordsman-longbowman cost 0 gold?

[player1]

-

[player1]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
And let the upgrade swordsman-longbowman cost 0 gold?

In that case, Swordsmen should not upgrade to Longbowmen.

Longbowmen is supposed to be cheap resouceless unit.

As 4/1/1, cost 30 unit is.

Although you could make 4/2/1, cost 40, needs iron unit (with Immortal graphic), to which Swordsmen will upgrade.


P.S.
By the way, since you have 5/6/1 Rilflemen unit, I don't see probelm with upgrading Longbowmen and Swordsmen to Riflemen.

They are all Infantry-type units.
And all of them have offense AI flag selected (including Riflemen).

Swordsmen and Bowmen were not used after Rifles anyway.

[player1]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
And let the upgrade swordsman-longbowman cost 0 gold?

In that case, Swordsmen should not upgrade to Longbowmen.

Longbowmen is supposed to be cheap resouceless unit.

As 4/1/1, cost 30 unit is.

Although you could make 4/2/1, cost 40, needs iron unit (with Immortal graphic), to which Swordsmen will upgrade.


P.S.
By the way, since you have 5/6/1 Rilflemen unit, I don't see probelm with upgrading Longbowmen and Swordsmen to Riflemen.

They are all Infantry-type units.
And all of them have offense AI flag selected (including Riflemen).

Swords & Bows were not used as primary weapons after Rifles anyway.

[alexman]

1. Republic's corruption and waste is 'problematic' instead of 'nuisance'
   This is a step in the right direction, although I promise you that you won't see a difference. Problematic has identical distance corruption as Nuisance. The difference in corruption due to number of cities is 1-2% for half the OCN, and less than 5% when over the OCN. See Aeson's test in the corruption thread.
2. Bank has maintenance of 2 instead of 1
   Research Lab has cost of 240 instead of 200 maintenance of 3 instead of 2
   Manufacturing Plant has maintenance of 4 instead of 3
   I like these changes a lot, especially since they will help the AI, who generally delays building these no-brainer improvements. I'm not sure about weakening the manufacturing plant though. Many players don't bother with these anyway, as spaceship victory is so close.
3. Hanging Gardens available with Polytheism instead of Monarchy
   Library available with Writing instead of Literature
   Universal Suffrage available with The Corporation instead of Industrialization
   Artillery available with Steel instead of Replacable Parts
   I like these changes too, but they might be too drastic for this mod. Moving libraries and hanging gardens will help the AI who somewhat ignores optional techs. That way Monarchy and Literature become truly optional, and I'm not sure they would be worth researching unless you want the GL or want to warmonger, respectively. The industrial age techs would be more balanced with this techs, but players are forced to research them all anyway, so I don't know that it would make that much of a difference in gameplay. Does it?
4. Terrain defense bonus only for forest, jungle, hills and mountains
   I personally have no problem with combat results. People just have to remember to always be stronger when they are attacking.
5. Reduced attack bonus against barbarians
   I hate barbarians! Seriously, how does this bring the mod closer to its goals? It even hampers the AI who plays at Regent.
6. Percentage of optimal cities rebalanced with regard to difficulty levels
   I love corruption! Again, I'm not sure this change is in the spirit of this mod.
7. More productive Jungles
   I'm OK with this either way, but it seems like changing for the sake of changing. Sometimes overcoming a difficult start can be very satisfying.
8. Earlier availability of irrigation without fresh water
   See comment for jungles.
9. Minimum research time in turns is 2 instead of 4
   Since 1.29f I think shooting a tech lead is a valid strategy, even on Emperor.
10. Symmetric cultural opinions, including an additional neutral level
    This seems like just an aesthetic change, because the histograph is good enough for estimating the culture-flip odds. I have no problem with it either way.

So here is the list of changes for 1.04. Speak up if you are unhappy with any of them, or if I left out one of the suggestions that are a must-have (e.g sword-longbow upgrade, items in lockstep's list)

• Remove coastal fortress and naval unit HP changes.
• Increase communist worker speed to democracy level
• Increase republic corruption to monarchy level
• Add "emphasize production" to all civs
• Increase maintenance cost for bank, research lab.
• Replace "explore" by units for Iroquois

[BillChin]

Originally posted by alexman [list=1][*]
So here is the list of changes for 1.04. Speak up if you are unhappy with any of them, or if I left out one of the suggestions that are a must-have (e.g sword-longbow upgrade, items in lockstep's list)

• Remove coastal fortress and naval unit HP changes.
• Increase communist worker speed to democracy level
• Increase republic corruption to monarchy level
• Add "emphasize production" to all civs
• Increase maintenance cost for bank, research lab.
• Replace "explore" by units for Iroquois

On the Monarchy/Democracy thread I suggest these minor tweaks to Government:
1) Monarchy add four free unit support. Four more gold is significant early, but meaningless later so Religious is not so super powerful. This change makes Monarchy slightly more desirable as the first switch. I think of these four units as an Imperial Guard.

2) Republic increase the corruption as is already slated.

3) Democracy add 0/1/2 unit support to give it a slight gold and tech edge over Republic. Strictly a game balance deal, not based on history.

4) Communism allow six military police (up from four). Add ten free unit support so small communist empires can have reasonable military. Increase unit support to 4/8/16 (from 2/4/8). With six MP, a human player can get WLTKD in all cities pop 12 or below, helping a great deal in the very large empires that Communism favors. Large armies of conscripts are historically accurate for Communist empires. Six MP and doubled unit support plus ten free units allows players to role play this. Faster Communist workers seem historically inaccurate, but I can live with it for game balance.

Nothing earth shaking here, but I see all these tweaks helping the AI and evening out the disparity in government choices (especially Communism which is shunned by most experienced players).
- Bill

[Harovan]

I still would like to give the swordsman-longbowman(4.2.1, 5, no resource)-marine upgrade a try. Opposing to player1, I think that upgrades to riflemen aren't such a good idea, as the offense-defense flags of the units will be messed up and the riflemen (and the units upgraded from them) will run around with the offense flag. This prevents the AI from building enough tanks. See the "Swordsman to Knight" thread in the Creation forum.

[player1]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I still would like to give the swordsman-longbowman(4.2.1, 5, no resource)-marine upgrade a try. Opposing to player1, I think that upgrades to riflemen aren't such a good idea, as the offense-defense flags of the units will be messed up and the riflemen (and the units upgraded from them) will run around with the offense flag. This prevents the AI from building enough tanks. See the "Swordsman to Knight" thread in the Creation forum.

As far as I have tested, this doesn't pose any real probalem.
(with 1.29f)
They still build Cavarly and Tanks in proper amounts.

And attack 5 Riflemen and atatck 8 Infantry are not realy bad option, if you have no Tanks either.

[lockstep]

Re no. 1: I won't see a difference in Republic's corruption, but I'll know it's there.

Re no. 2: No hard feelings about my suggestion for manufacturings plants, as they would be the only buildings with a maintenance of 4. However, resesarch labs IMO really should be more expensive than universities, which already cost 200 shields. BTW, I think that the bank's maintenance of 1 in vanilla Civ3 is actually a bug, because the 'Maintenance' entry of the civilopedia says it's 2.

Re no. 3: The suggestions for Hanging Gardens and Universal Suffrage are mainly aesthetic (I don't like filler techs), but should also increase strategic choice in the second case - no wonder option as a by-product of a tech (industrialization) you'd want anyhow. Artillery to Steel would weaken Replacable Parts, which is currently to good to be missed (for the human player). And libraries shouldn't be attached to an optional tech IMO.

Re no. 4: To be honest, I never understood what's the point of a GENERAL terrain defense bonus. 'Bonuses' are something special IMO, which means a lot of terrains should have a bonus of zero.

Re no. 5, 6: I adopted some of player1's tweaks that will only affect lower difficulty levels. No hard feelings here, but an attack bonus of 800% against barbarians at chieftain (which means your lonesome warrior will attack with a strength of 9) 'isn't even funny'.

Re no. 7, 8: Jungles would have stats of 1/1/0 (still worse than forests), couldn't be mined (contrary to plains) and would still entail the risk of disease. Doesn't sound too unbalancing to me. OTOH, if I start near jungle in vanilla Civ3, I normally hit control-shift-Q. Same with the lack of fresh water. I simply want to decrease the urge to quit second-rate starting locations.

Re no. 9: Being able to research a new tech every turn would be a bad idea IMO. OTOH, if you have managed to be civ no. 1 in the middle game and to trigger your golden age at that point, you'll often get a tech every 4 turns with a science rate of 60-70%. I want the option of deficit spending and/or producing wealth to enlarge my tech lead.

Re no. 10: It IS mainly an aesthetic change, but I'd like my foreign and cultural advisor to give info that is SOMEWHAT useful. Currently, the fact that 'Civ X is impressed by our culture' means that I have somewhere between 100% and 200% of their culture (who knows) and that my people are either 'unimpressed' or 'dismissive' of their culture (which makes a difference when it comes to the chances of flipping, but again - who knows).

Anyhow, I like every change that’s in your list for v1.04 so far.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alexman

• Remove coastal fortress and naval unit HP changes.
• Increase communist worker speed to democracy level
• Increase republic corruption to monarchy level
• Add "emphasize production" to all civs
• Increase maintenance cost for bank, research lab.
• Replace "explore" by units for Iroquois

alexman, I support all of these changes 100%. I'm glad you're a voice of reason against making relatively important changes just for the sake of making them; such changes are usually a matter of personal taste, and thus would lead to endless debate. As is, the AU MOD is one most of us can agree with. Any other tweaks can remain in our own personal .bic files for now (I know I have a couple of cool ones lying around).

I do have a very minor question about the last item in the list. I assume you're planning to remove 'Explore' and insert 'Offensive Units' for the Iroquois, correct?


Dominae

[alexman]

I updated the readme in the initial post. I will update the BIC tomorrow after people have had more time to comment.

I think we should include Sir Ralph's sword-longbow upgrade and BillChin's government tweaks for now. We will decide whether or not to keep them in the mod after some playtesting in the AU 107 game (just like we did for my brilliant Coastal Fortress idea )