AUSG101 - Opportunist team DAR 1

[Theseus]

Can someone add up the corruption from Arrian's CP, adn show me how those three cities are equal?

[Master Zen]

Excellent DAR Dominae Reading your reports is always a pleasure, there are always tips and other bits of info that noobs and vets alike appreciate.

I will download the saves later to check them out one by one before I vote. Looking good guys!

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Theseus
Can someone add up the corruption from Arrian's CP, adn show me how those three cities are equal?

Tiles N,S,W,E count as 1.5, tiles NE,SE,NW,SW count as 1. Thus,

Baghdad 1.5+1.5+1+1=5
Damascus 1+1+1+1+1=5
Medina 1.5+1.5+1+1=5

btw, tiles round down (that is, 7.5 is the same as 7), didn't know this until Dom pointed it out, and after testing, works.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Theseus
1) 9999 is equal to 411 and 633?

I moved my Settler 9 at the beginning, so that's 999 and not 9999. All those three cities are either at distance 3 or 3.5 from the capital, and so fall into the same ring.

2) Your two western cities are at 2-tile spacing?

Yep. I decided to do a 3 ring and a 5 ring, meaning that some of my cities would be only two tiles apart. This may be excessive on this map and difficulty, but I wanted to show off what RCP can really do. Even if it's only 2 tiles between cities, the cities in the first two rings should still have enough workable tiles, since many at distance 5 are coastal.

3) If you had an MP in Mecca would you need the luxury setting?

Good question! I'm not really sure. I admit that I'm a bit of an extremist when it comes to MP: I rarely use them. I rather put my units toward my borders, where they can cause mischief. Also, MPs would probably be Warriors (I like to wait for Barracks to build Spearmen), and I want to use Horsemen on this map instead of upgrading to Swordsmen. If we were playing, say, Rome, I would probably use more MPs.

4) You currently have no barracks?

I'm opportunistically going "pure builder" and seeing where that gets me. I figure if I can keep the Barbs off my back, my two pump cities should claim enough land that I'll be the strongest civ despite poor military. I do actually have two cities building Barracks (just in case), but that might change depending on how safe I feel.


Dominae

[Rhothaerill]

Despite my fear of creating a "too-easy" early starting position, I think this whole game is shaping up to be fun and informative so far. We have a wide ranging group of starts and people can learn something from each one. Whatever else happens in this game a first 40 turns example is something that will come out of it. Though I personally hope everyone will see it through to the end. With the sheer amount of civ knowledge floating around in the DAR threads I can't wait to see how the rest of the game is handled.

[Theseus]

When I first read Dominae's DAR, I was going to ding him.

I would not have thought of going pure builder as opportunistic (to me, the word seems to indicate balance), but I understand it now as presented...

Rather than balance military and economic production at this stage of the game, the opportunity lies in taking advantage of the assets at hand and MAKING THE BET to be a voracious early builder.

No different than an opportunistic Settler bop, in a certain way.

Hmmm... still have to think more about the others.

[alexman]

Wow Dominae! I must say that UP in your game is almost a given after a start like that!

And with all those tips, I must say that we should take the format of Dominae's DAR as a model for future rounds.

[charlie_six]

All Hail General charlie_six from the Domination Team!

Hi all, here's my laydown. I had alot of free time ...as you can tell lol

-note: when i say exploit I don't mean exploit in a game sence, I mean it in a figurative sence!


BRC-

-Exploiting the Expansionist Civ: Excellent job doing that. I mean this guy has a scout all the way down past carthage, and one by the japanese.

-Tech trading/Exploiting: Good job, leader in tech, and other known civs are poor.

-Building improvements/units: My God man, you are in a great position to stop the japanese and start settling towards them. Best offensive positioning
I've seen yet of units. Only thing holding you back a lil is keeping all those warriors back in place of temples, (ok only 3 heh)
Building: The thing that worries me is not getting temples up on your S, E, and NE cities. Why? the culture fight. Temples expand your zone of control, and while blocking the Japanese
the Americans will be on your doorstep soon. Sure you can kill them later, but that will mean using precious units that could be used to nail the coffin shut on the japanese. Remember Carthage will
be coming soon along the choke point S, and you definately don't want to get tangled up with them anytime soon. I consider temples a projection of military power, (like a unit hehe), Temples claim land
and prevent me from obliterating an annoying city that sets down there. Like Sun Tzu says, "the best way to win a war is to never have one" ..or something like that.

Overall this solution is the best one to contain the japanses early. Nail some settlers, wait till osaka gets pop 2, then sieze it. Get peace, block SW of osaka till you get a city up, bang japanese is a paper tiger,
letting you focus on containment of america and carthage, while expanding the nice rivers. Disadvantage is having america develop too much and possibly become dominant.



Arrian-

-Exploiting the Expansionist civ: Great use of scouts, you have a great current operating picture, (COP) ..heh nuther acronym for ya.
Getting the settler was huge, scouting payed off!

-Tech trading/Exploiting: Buying that worker was great! ps anyon e know what triggers a civ to put workers on the table? Anyway, trading resulted with a tech lead. Could
sell off some tech for cash, but with 382 gold I would have to ask why also.

-Building improvements/units: Woohoo! fighting the culture fight with temples! Grab that land! Also, the go/nogo decision on building a granary or not
I thought was excellent. Extremely efficient.
Units: Great positioning overall. The settler is the key player in your scheme. Grabbing a luxury, and blocking settlement of the japanese. The military is positioned for a settler ambush opportunity for america. Only
thing I see is you could have pulled a warrior or 2 from your civ for a better ambush/blocking opportunity of the japanese. Only disadvantage I see is not having
enough military up by osaka to prevent your new fur city from being cut off


Overall, excellent opportunist thinking, and in my of course non-expert opinion hehe, you set the best conditions to accomplish the best big opportunity which is siezing the fur, and denying the japanese settlement of the
river network. Only disadvantage I see is you will need to make a decion soon: Build your cities, and let the japanese slip through, or build a few more units to stop/slow settlement of the japanese to settle the rivers


Dominae-

-Exploiting the Expansionist Civ: Masterful work, using the trait of the expansionist civ for capital placement was the best move of all the teams I think. Used 2 scouts which seemed the perfect balance for this terrain

-Tech Trading/Exploiting: Great use of trading, etc. Have a tech lead. Question: by having low research, is your goal to slow down the tech advances?(said in your tip you control pace), and if so why? just wondering

-Building Improvements: Again, masterful work, and I learned alot from your play actually. I think you built the most efficient of everyone in the AU...hands down lol.

-Units: Being from the domination team, I experienced various emotional states when analyzing your units. At first, of course shock and disdain, (1 spearman is he mad!). Then after looking at it all, awe, (wow it's not even risky,
if a barb shows up he's right, just make a defensive unit, he has plenty of reaction time), then affirmation, (this is hands down the best way to get your civ goin, I'll be using this technique definately)
The thing still nagging me is, what about the fur up by osaka? I just see a missed opportunity there, that outweighs having to do without 1 city at the core during this time. With a settler/spearman and say 3 military units-in one stroke
you could get the fur, sieze osaka, and confine the japanese to that penninsula, and settle the river network. With the current unit setup, you dont have that capability.

Overall, hands down the best devlopment of the starting location, and city management. If it isn't perfect, I'd say it's pretty darn close. Only disadvantage I see is as mentioned before, a missed opportunity to stop settlement of
japan cold, and a luxury gain in one step.
gain a luxury


Nor Me-

-Exploiting the expansionist civ: Excellent work, so that's 3 scouts total? Using 3 enanbled you to get a great COP also, (current operating picture). On thing tho: why didn't you leave a scout or something at the S choke point of carthage?
That may come back to haunt you, especially if you assume carthage hasn't slipped past you yet. Scouts can plug that hole great.

-Tech Trading/Exploiting: Of all the folks in the team here, looks like you are on top. Looks like you want to keep a fast pace of techs, and gifting them off will do just that, so that's good

-Building improvements: Medina and Najran placement kinda confuses me and I'll tell ya why: (please respond if you have time, don't take offense I am not the sharpest stick)
1. Theres a ton of food by the horse location, why didn't you put it near there? You have a good city and have horse capability. As you've picked up, going mounted will enable you to more opportunities in this spread out situation
2. Purpose of Najran so close? Also, it's building a barracks - why?

-Units: great balance of defense and efficency. One critical thing tho already mentioned: need somthing to plug that S choke point. If you havent had a scout with eyes on it for a while, a more reasoble assumption is that there is a carthage
warrior running around on your side
Now I'm not saying this just cuz I'm from the domination side of the house....oki maybe that has a lil to do with it... but not having a unit or 2 at the ready for a settler ambush for the japanese I see as having major implications. Look at
those rivers and fur up by them. They are going to be breeding like mad and be on your doorstep in no-time. The line of osaka's S zone of control, the beaver, to the fish on the coast is key terrain. That is the gate to the nice rivers and gold and fur.
Seizing/stopping thier expansion at that "gate" is vital, and we need to set the conditions for that action.
And lastly on the american front, not having at least a warrior to stop a settlement taking or getting near your iron puts you at a disadvantage.

Overall, you are the tech monkey. With monarchy on the horizon that would be the biggest advantage over everybody. The biggest disadvantage I see is it is looking gloomy for land for you. The other civs will be settling on your doorstep, and you will have to
fight them back. Win land through denial, and blocking/siezing key terrain, then you never have to fight in the first place. Like Sun Tzu says: "The best way to win a war is to not fight one" ..or something like that.


GodKing-

-Exploiting the expansionist civ: Great exploration, you are the only one who made 4 scouts I think. 4 scouts may have been overkill tho, and you might have been better off producing 2. You have a great COP, (current operating picture), but you
did not plug the S choke point. This hurt you, as you can see there is a american scout with an open path to carthage. I point here I can share, is examine the terrain, (I don't play ex civ's alot and found that you can really get a jump on this
sice you have a great view of the world). For me, when I see narrow land, all these bells and whistles go off in my head to control it, thru a unit/or zone of control. Why? Because whoever owns a choke point, controls information and settlement, and manuever of
an entire continent. Being near one is a golden opportunity.

-Tech Trading/Exploiting: From talking to the other civs, you could still trade some. In addition, japan has a worker you could have bought. This would have saved you from building your own. I dunno if you have a thing against trading tech or not. I used to, until I
played emperor and diety heh. As Dominae said, at this level we control tech pace, so trading isnt bad. Its also a good way to bankrupt other civs.

-Building improvements/units: The HQ is a nice built up productive city. I think you would have better luck having twohills building military units than a barracks tho. A couple regular warriors could raise alot more heck and block japans advance than a veteran one 24
24 turns from now. In 24 turns they will be next door.

-Units: I was able to scamble the spearman to protect the 2 workers and settler near that invading barb, but you lost some precious productivity in doin so. As much as a pain it is, it's best to have an escort with settlers. My technique for timing is build/have the escort then build
a settler.

Overall, a great picture of the world, and a solid capital. Advantage is great use of settler-sending him to the american side to slow the american settlement rate. Disadvantage is too few cities and units/unit positioning. I'm not really big on the circle or whatever the acronyms are,
(just take a look at my game in domination, I just have 2 cities 2), but I'm going to use more of that technique and suggest that you would too. I know in my games, especially at higher levels, my civ grows too sloooo off the bat.




-Decision from General Charlie_six:

Arrian

-Why

Only civ capable to exploit the opportunity of siezing furs, and stopping japanese settlement in one swoop, with minimal resources used.

-Analysis: please refer to map. Lets look at key terrain.
1. Here's the key terrain on the continent. Whoever owns this will dominate the continent. (actually I should have extanded the circle a lil bit NE also). It's just a matter of time 2. The line. Whoever owns this line, will stop the japanese from advancing. If you control this, you control japanese expansion. Enabling you to settle the key rivers. If you do not control it, the japan will and settle it like crazy
3. Fur, luxury. Whoever owns the line, owns this. Owning this would be good.
4. The screen, (the lightning bolt line) It doesn't pay to stop the americans, since settlement of this area is slow, and is generally worse terrain than 1. But, in order to fully settle 1. you will need to limit thier expansion until you have what you want
5. The block of the carthage. Setting one unit is fine. The trigger to build a city near there is when they put a city down there.

While Dominae has the best civ start I'd say, Arrian is in a better position to exploit this opportunity window. If it is not exploited, I'm afraid to control that key terrain in 1., you will be fighting japan from here to Christmas. Inaction now will mean an expensive and unpleasant war
later, Arrian is in the best position, (possibly only position) to accomplish this. With one stroke, (and a settle ambush or 2 hehe) I envision Arrian:
1. Founding his new fur city!
2. Denying Japan of the key terrain!
3. Settling the best undeclared land on the continent!

All accomplished through at most a minor skirmish vs a long war. I see this as more advantagous and less costly than Dominae's solution of a masterful build. By the time you send folks N, you will be forced to find scraps of land to settle, or take them from Japan.

HAIL LORD ARRIAN! BUILD YOUR FUR CITY BROTHER!

ahem sorry I get a little carried away sometimes. good luck!

[Rhothaerill]

This discussion phase is already turning out better than I expected. It's great getting the viewpoints everyone has and the reasons why they have them. Nice detailed analysis charlie_six. You may be new to Apolyton University, but you've already got the "spirit" of the AU down.

[Theseus]

Wow, charlie_six... you sorta opened my eyes to the big picture there!!

I think a lot of us, especially in the critical early phase of the game, spend a LOT more time making economic or military TACTICAL decisions than thinking big picture.

I don;t mean that to deny that people think of how they will gain game-breaking advantage, but it's a focus more on the *mechanics* than your points about the fur and Japanese expansion. Probably an outgrowth of many of us here in 'poly having spent close to 2 years just figuring stuff out and teaching it to newer players (sometimes again and again ).

Great analysis overall, btw, although I think you might be OVER-estimating the impact of a few things (the furs, Japan, and the chokepoint) and UNDER-estimating the value of others (exponentially increasing production power, tech power).

This is HARD.

[Theseus]

Dominae, I've been meaning to ask: did I understand correctly that you delayed popping huts to get the first tier tech trades done with nearby AI civs first?

If yes, were you not concerned that they would beat you to the huts?

[Theseus]

Nor Me, why is Najran where it is? 2 tiles from each of Mecca and Medina... a camp?

[charlie_six]

I asked the same question Theseus and am wondering why also...I thought it was a camp city too but not really sure..

You're right i prolly underestimate production advantage and overestimate japan.. ..I just like drawing cool things on maps hehe. guess Im the Madden of poly

[Theseus]

Ver cool, c_s... glad you are here!!

(And where have you been all this time? You know your game, although it doesn't quite feel like the flavor here in the 'poly Strat forum.)

And again, I loved your observations about the north... I am re-visiting my own block in that light, but think it is less of a concern in a domination-oriented game, where CLEARLY the Japanese are the first Horse-priority (Toku and us [we?] are gonna have a little chat shortly ).

[Rhothaerill]

I have updated the first post with the current voting for the teams. I will keep the post updated throughout the day. The deadline for voting is 23:59 EST Thursday night. Please have all your votes cast by then.