Going for 500 AD landings on standard maps

[La Fayette]

No, solo,
He's just busy bringing shame on the forehead of previous record holders in the field of 'Conflicts in Civilization' scenarios.

(La Fayette, one of those)

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
samson/solo ... below is the 4000BC start for that game in 2.42, playing as the Vikings. My 875 landing was a restart after knowing a lot about the map. No freights were ever rehomed.
Starting techs are reasonable with: Alphabet, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws and Masonry. The real bonuses were the large number of huts, the proximity of two gold mountains, the massive amount of real estate and the Indians who can be found early in the game.

------------------------------- SG(2)

SG(2),

I have searched but cannot find the thread where you logged that game. (Perhaps I have mis-remembered reading this thread??) If it exists, could you please post a link, or the general time frame when it happened??

The elegant economy of solo's approach has inspired me to try to learn some new (for me) tricks. It is very satisfying to have 50+ cities producing 50+ shields/turn, but the turns take forever. I thought reading your log would help me figure out a new plan. I know I must learn a more lean philosopy for building white goods; and to get to one turn advances faster, for example.

Thanks (2) and thanks also to solo for your thought provoking posts providing the reasoning behind your gameplan. Your understanding of the subtle points of this game is so profound. I had so many "aha" moments reading over your accounts that I was giddy. This is an amazing game.

[Scouse Gits]

Thanks BM ... I'm sure I posted the final 874.sav file before landing some time ago. I will try and dig out the thread.

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SG(2)

[solo]

Thanks, BM.

I would also like to see details about that large map game SG(2), to see how our strategies for large map games compare.

I have finished my own large map game and was a bit surprised to land in 435 AD, which is even ahead of my time on the standard map!

Long range trade becomes so profitable in the second half of the game, I was finding that no science from cities was needed! After building a fast ship, I still had over 7,000 gold and a few freights left over.

So many more huts on larger maps increased the inflow of gold and "free" techs in the early game, and the AI were better learners, too, since they also benefited from this.

My conclusion is that it is actually easier to land before 500 AD using large maps than it is with medium ones, but there may have been unique features of the start I used that made the difference. I will try this again, using the large map start SG(2) provided, to see if my newest strategies also work with it.

For now, here is the save made just before the landing.

[La Fayette]

solo,

You look like a real commuter between Earth and AC, whichever size of map you choose
May I be your bodyguard next time?

(La Fayette, convinced that samson doesn't beat this one before Christmas)

[Scouse Gits]

solo Excellent game knocking centuries off my 875

Please try my map! I will post the final save after you have played the game. Without giving too much away the entire game was a hutfest and a trade sleaze. Although the terrain offers a good SSC the number of huts gave me the problem of too many free techs ... Warrior Code and Feudalism tend to slow things up! I never went into Republic as I had loads of settlers. I made the jump from Monarchy to Democracy after Magnetism when Leo's upgraded my long ship chains of caravels into galleons so avoiding unhappiness with units away from home.

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SG(2)

[solo]

La Fayette,

This is the second game in a row in which the barbarians captured Paris. They must have a taste for French wine and cuisine!

SG(2),

I doubt if 500 AD is possible using your start, but I am giving it a try now. I am finding enough huts, but still have not found the purple civ, who you mentioned were close by. This must be relatively speaking, or else they are just across the water, where I am headed now with my first trireme.

I got Writing from one of my first huts, so with only two more steps to get to early Republic, I skipped Monarchy. This will be a big difference between our two games, since you went with Monarchy a long time. I did get Horseback Riding from a hut, which I didn't want, but Warrior Code has not been added, YET.

So far, quite a few advanced tribes (I'd rather get nomads). Two of them were in good spots, but the others I cancelled by building settlers. Even though more happy cities are a good bonus coming with large maps, I like to make sure each one I keep is a real contributor in some way. There's no room for those marginal tribe locations.

My plan in this game is for more early trade, so I have decided on a the SSC site having two fish, a whale and furs as specials, because this one has access to the ocean. With Shakespeare's Theater coming in a few turns, I can home all triremes with this city so as to keep them all active and moving after the switch to Democracy. However, I am considering the site having access to the gold specials as a mini-SSC, and may end up locating scientific wonders there.

You may be interested in trying a game with the start I used, which came with Monarchy. Nothing like that as a freebie, allowing you to make the switch in 3850 BC! The start is attached below:

[Scouse Gits]

solo - The Indians are on another continent. The site with the gold mountains was my SSC and from memory your spot with the furs was my capital. I opened around 60 huts and received about a dozen techs.

Will have a look at your start.

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SG(2)

[solo]

SG(2),

Well, I had some time today to finish my game using your map, and my landing date was 761 AD, not much different or better than what you did in your game. I think this just goes to show that with skilled players, landing dates will be fairly close when the same start is used. This map was fun to play a game on. Thanks for providing it.

I hope you are giving it a try with my start, as I think it gives the best shot of landing much before the dates we both got with your large map start.

It might be fun to compare details about both games, and compare the advantages and disadvantages of the two starts.

My save below was made on the turn of launch. I did not play it out to the end. The barbs took one of my cities the turn before launch.

[La Fayette]

You make me feel like giving it a try (though there are so many scenarios left to play ), but I'm afraid I'm not good enough at early landing to provide useful information
(good news BTW: samson doesn't seem to have published any new surprising result, so he's probably busy )

[solo]

La Fayette,

Like OCC and other specialized ways of playing Civ II, it takes a little practice to get the hang of playing early landing games, but they are a lot of fun.

Attached below is another large map start I found to tempt you with, with Alphabet, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws, Currency, Masonry, and Monarchy coming as free techs. Settlers are located in the middle of a huge continent that is loaded with huts.

Sometime I should get around to trying some of these scenarios, but may not get the chance before Rise of Nations is released, which I suspect will keep me quite busy, since most reviews of the press betas so far have been very enthusiatic about the design of the game.

[La Fayette]

'Rise of Nations' ? Is it that kind of game that is going to be released early 2003 in the US and early 2004 in France?
Anyway, I sleep very quietly , since I know I have at least ONE American friend who is able to send the game to me if needed
I try your 'early' start first and swear I'll give you the result and some details, so that you can have a good

[Scouse Gits]

solo ... very well played

I post my final position below. My game was too elaborate and lacked the minimalist finesse of your technique.

I will try one of your starts.

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SG(2)

[solo]

La Fayette,

Hopefully, Rise of Nations will be what Empire Earth could have been. It is the first game being done by Brian Reynolds with his new company, Big Huge Games. Brian was the one who came up with Civ II and SMAC, while working for Sid Meier, so there are high hopes for RoN. If you want a copy, I will try to make yours the first one that arrives in France.

Have fun with your early landing game and don't expect too much with the first try. It takes a lot of practice.

SG(2),

I took a look at your save and came away impressed with how large and well developed your Viking empire had become in the amount of time provided. That rail line almost all the way to the South Pole was more than I thought possible before 1000 AD.

With so many huts and with so much to be made from trade on large maps, I am starting to think that that minimalist approach does not suit them the best. Techs certainly come quickly from huts early on, and later their acquisition is easy to sustain from trade, making a strong SSC less important than it is on smaller maps.

I am leaning more towards your approach in my latest game, since it is less dependent on having that very rare, but ideal, SSC site that the minimalist approach almost requires for its success. The main difference is that I will still be going for early Republic, for its early research boost and higher "happy" city limit.

[solo]

I just finished another large map game, with a landing date of 295 AD, and am beginning to think that large maps are the best choice for early landings, since their many advantages more than make up for the higher tech costs.

In this game, my SSC started with a wheat, a silk and two hidden silk. The other city tiles featured 2 ocean, 1 hill, 4 forest, a few plains, and the rest were grassland. There were no rivers, but there was time to convert every city tile into an excellent trade arrow producer. The SSC ended up producing over 1100 beakers, which is very good, but it was the addition of scientific improvements and superhighways to my 5 best helper cities that provided enough extra science to sustain two advances per turn after the discovery of Automobile.

In large map games, there comes a point when lucrative freights can be produced and delivered quickly enough to produce a snowballing effect, where enough income per turn has become available from trade to rush the next turn’s group of freights, which in turn, produce more than enough income to keep the rushbuying going. Any surplus amount can be funneled into the purchase of helper city libraries, universities, superhighways, and research labs, resulting in the production of enough supplemental science to sustain 1 turn advances.

Since well over 1000 in gold (and trade arrows) is possible each turn by making freight deliveries, two advances per turn become the rule, rather than exception, for the rest of the game, after the discovery of Automobile provides superhighways. It takes longer to get to Automobile on large maps than on the smaller ones, but if this can be done near the transition from BC to AD years, a large map game can really accelerate to an early landing date.

Near the end of my game, my cities were putting out almost 2000 beakers, still enough to research fusion power as the second of the last pair of advances needed before a launch. Of this 2000, over 1100 was from my SSC, over 600 came from the 5 improved helpers, and the rest came from the 10 regular helpers. Below is attached a save made the turn of the launch.