Going for 500 AD landings on standard maps

[solo]

Bloody Monk,

My apologies.

Hmm, I will try it again here.

Just to make sure I loaded and looked at this ab_a475.sav before attaching it.

LaFayette,

Thanks for distracting Samson!

[Bloody Monk]

Thank you Solo...no need to apologize, I was just trying to help.

Beautiful game and thanks again.

[solo]

Here are some details about the 476 AD game. These will be presented in installments, one per post, each post dealing with a different aspect of the game. This first section gives details about the benefits of the start used for this game.

It helps to have a great start

The start was the same one that I used for my 776 AD game. It had several things going for it, benefiting both games:

1) Six starting techs, including Alphabet, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws, Masonry and Pottery. Perhaps Pottery was least useful to have for free, but it did not hurt to have it to trade to the AI, putting them closer to researching Seafaring for me.
The more free techs, the better, since carrying costs are reduced.

2) Playing as the Americans allows the civ rated as Strong to key off the American tech lead, creating a useful research assistant. Of course, as the Americans became Supreme, they keyed off the Mongols (purple), by gifting them all new techs that were learned. Being close by on the same continent, the Mongols were easy to find, permitting a discount in tech costs almost immediately.

3) The Romans were also close by, and the proximity of Rome, made it a good candidate for a road and railroad connection with my SSC, Atlanta. Since these connections passed close by and/or through my helper cities, the roads and railroads built along this path provided even more benefits than the principal one of boosting SSC trade route arrows.

4) The French were also located nearby, and during the earliest part of the game, were rated Strong. They became an excellent research assistant, and trading techs with them helped speed the way to early Republic. Early contact with them and with the Romans and Mongols, must have surely prevented some duplication of effort in the researching of early techs.

5) The SSC location featured 3 wheat and one whale, with mostly plains and some grass for surrounding terrain. Several tiles were covered by a river that ran through this section of the map. This river and its surrounding terrain, featuring mostly wheat and silk, was ideal for the SSC and all of the nearby helper cities, too. The wheat was excellent for rapid early growth, and could be mined to silk later when a boost in trade arrows and production shields were needed the most. Early wheat was also very welcome, since it helped supply the extra food needed by settlers when the switch was made to early Republic. Sea tiles covered by this pattern featured whales, which also promote the rapid growth and production of small cities.

6) Just south of the starting position of the settlers was a gold mountain located on a peninsula. Since no other trade specials were nearby, it was unsuitable for a SSC site, but made an excellent location for one of my helper cities. Rivered grassland ran along side this mountain, so a city was founded on the mountain itself, since a free food is provided at the city’s central tile. This city became a sort of mini-SSC, supplying most of the trade arrows and beakers for early research. In fact, the first library was built here instead of the SSC, since the SSC only had 3 wheat and one whale at this time. The SSC had more potential, but potential doesn’t provide extra early beakers. Even with the free mountaintop food, this city could only grow at 1 food per turn, so the first job of the first settler produced by my adjacent capital, was to irrigate a grassland tile used by the mountaineers. Being almost surrounded by ocean, this city was an attractive target for barbarian pirates, so it did not hurt having the terrain defense bonus and limited escape routes for retreating barbarian leaders.

7) Most beaker requirements in the earliest part of the game were fulfilled by helper cities, allowing the SSC to concentrate on rapid growth. The mountain city mentioned above was the main contributor, but most other helpers had access to rivers, whales, and/or silk, and the cumulative effect of these beakers kept early advances coming at a rapid pace. Once the SSC grew, it was able to take on its primary role of providing the most science. With most starts, the SSC has to provide the largest share of beakers from the get go.

8) The other 3 AI were located on different continents, at a good enough range for very profitable overseas trade. In addition, the sea routes to each of them were quite direct and safely accessible for trireme exploration. The Japanese cities were easiest to reach, were about half way around the world, and their locations promoted the demand of the best commodities produced by my SSC, creating a perfect overseas trading partner. The other two overseas AI provided more variety in demand and many helper cities were able to send their best commodities their way.

9) The map featured a decent supply of huts, which never hurts, and the some remote areas of it had some excellent terrain that could be colonized by nomads for additional internal trading opportunities with the SSC back on the home continent.

10) After my capital was founded, Monarchy was available as one of the first research options (Writing was not), so I decided to go with Monarchy until I could learn Republic. I know this choice may make Samson shudder, but I felt the boosts Monarchy gave to the early growth and production of my cities would make up for carrying it as an off path tech. I also reasoned that if I could trade Monarchy to civs possessing Warrior Code, they were apt to learn Feudalism for me, and possibly Chivalry after that, saving me the trouble of doing this myself later in the game. With my second city founded on gold, Monarchy was discovered in time to convert to it in 3650, too! This was too good a bargain to pass up.

11) This is probably enough said about this start. It is still the most suitable one that I have found for early landing attempts on a standard map. A save of this start is available for download in a previous post.

[samson]

Solo,

Good game. A 476 AD landing would be impressive even on a small map. I shall, of course, challenge it!

LaFayette,

I have indeed been playing some of your CiC scenarios. Much fun, thank you.

[solo]

Thanks, Samson, but don't be in too much of a hurry to challenge 476!

Below is the next installment about that game:

One turn advances won’t hurt your chances

One key to early landing games is to develop enough science in order to obtain an advance every turn. Once this ability has been achieved, 2 advances are possible on turns where enough caravan deliveries can be made to secure the first advance of a pair. The ease with which this can be accomplished depends on the size of the map, and since 1 turn advances are a vital requirement for an early landing, a lot of planning has to go into reaching this goal with the most speed and efficiency.

In small map games, research costs are much lower, and a well developed SSC with first a road, and then a rail, trade route connection to a nearby AI city, is all that is needed to sustain 1 turn advances until all research is complete. As Samson has proven in small map games, the extra trade arrows provided by the Colossus are superfluous, since 1 turn advances can be secured with an SSC even without the help of this wonder. Thus, Pottery can be bypassed, avoiding the carrying costs of one more tech. When the SSC can carry all research costs in small map games, secondary cities are only needed to produce caravans, space ship parts, and other units.

On a standard sized map, research costs have increased enough to put sustained 1 turn advances out of the reach of even the most productive SSC’s. Adding the benefits of the Colossus is not enough. Increasing trade route arrows with a road and railroad connection to a nearby AI city is an extremely effective way of boosting an SCC’s science level, and we have DaveV to thank for suggesting that idea and Samson to thank by showing how much this technique improved early landing scores on small maps. However, this significant boost to SSC science only allows a few1 turn advances in standard map games. They can not be sustained for very long.

This gap in science can filled by secondary cities, but only if they are allowed to grow larger than the minimal size that is customary in small map games. This was the strategy used in the 776 AD game, where several size-8 helper cities were able to produce about 50 beakers each, providing just enough supplemental science to sustain those 1 turn advances. At the time that game was played, the benefits of having a road and rail trade route connection between the SSC and an AI city were not fully appreciated, so helper cities played a very significant role in speeding up research. With the road and rail improvement, the gap between an SSC’s science and what was needed for 1 turn advances narrowed considerably on standard maps, but helpers were still needed. So in the 476 game, a modified helper city strategy was used.

For the 476 game, the research role of the SSC could be expanded by taking advantage of the road and rail connection to Rome. Therefore, helpers did not need to contribute as much science as in the 776 game, but minimal helpers (size 3) were not quite enough, either. So a helper size of about 6 was chosen, and when a library and university were added to the best two of these, enough beakers were generated to sustain 1 turn advances. In the 476 game, 1 turn advances starting coming a little after 400 BC, and were sustained for the rest of the game, with the minor exception of the last two techs. A freight delivery helped learn one of these on one turn and a more relaxed two turns were used to research Fusion Power, since the goal of a landing before 500 AD was within reach. 3 or 4 times during the game, caravan deliveries were used in combination with city science to produce two advances per turn.

[solo]

Here is another installment about the game:

Early Republic is misery, unless you want to learn quickly

There is no doubt about it. The Republic form of government is not very suitable for young cities. When the switch is made from a thriving Monarchy, the effects are immediately and painfully apparent. Every unit needs a shield of support and each settler needs an extra food. City defenders no longer suppress anger and extorting tribute from AI neighbors is a delight relegated to the past. The entertainment or luxuries extra citizens start clamoring for cut into revenues and production. But for learning new techs quickly in the early part of the game, there is no viable substitute. Even with all its problems, early Republic is a must.

In OCC style games, Shakespeare’s Theater comes to the rescue. At a thrifty cost of 6 caravans, happiness problems are solved forever. In small map early landing games, the ST wonder can be used for the SSC and temples can cover the minimal helpers. But what about happiness control for the larger helpers needed in standard map games? If luxuries are being used to keep citizens happy, this cuts into income and makes it harder to max out science.

In the 776 game, where helpers needed to be about size 8, this problem was solved by researching Monotheism as quickly as possible, and building Michaelangelo’s Chapel as my first wonder. By the time this happened, the SSC and all surrounding helpers had temples and were ready to grow further, so the switch was made from Monarchy to Republic in 1250 BC, right after the Chapel was built. After few turns of celebration, the early growing pains of a Republic were bypassed, making for a quick transition from a thriving Monarchy into a thriving Republic. Later on, Shakepseare’s was added to the SSC to keep it growing further. As the SSC grew, the necessary science wonders were completed and the switch was made to Democracy in the early AD years. This plan worked well, but one reason for its success was number of the huts that produced good techs during the prolonged period of Monarchy. A good plan can not count on lucky hut technology.

Early Republic is preferable to keep new techs coming in at a rapid pace, but when larger helper cities are required, the problem of happiness is a major one that must be dealt with. Michaelangelo’s Chapel works well for helper happiness, but Polytheism and Monotheism are prerequisites for this wonder. It takes time to learn these off path techs, and adding two more techs to the total would increase tech carrying costs, too. The alternative wonders, the Hanging Gardens and the Oracle, were out. They were less effective, and only temporary, solutions.

When making a plan for my 476 game, I decided that helpers only needed to be about size 5 or 6, so I decided on using colosseums in addition to temples for controlling happiness in my helper cities. However, these cost a lot to build and maintain, so the decision was made to start expanding the size of my SSC first, and hold off of helper celebrations until the SSC was ready to celebrate to its maximum size. By doing this, the purchase and maintenance costs of colosseums for the helpers could be deferred for as long as possible.

The plan was to switch to Republic as soon as it became available, which was in the year 2450 BC, and keep helper cities happy at size 3 by using temples. Settlers were built from fast growing helper cities, and went to work improving the SSC site and building the road connection to Rome that was needed to increase SSC trade route values. To compensate for helper weakness under this form of government, the SSC was founded in 2800 BC, much earlier than the SSC in the 776 game, which had been founded in 1800 BC. By that time in the 476 game, the SSC had reached size 3 and already had a temple, marketplace and library in place, and 8 turns later Shakeapeare’s Theater allowed it to start celebrating up in size. The SSC in the 476 game was already at size 8 in 1250 BC, which is the date in the 776 game when all its cities started to grow together.

Putting emphasis on early SSC growth helped compensate for some of the problems associated with early Republic. Soon it was large enough to take on the support of units previously built and supported by the helpers. This freed up helper shields allowing them to build caravans more quickly. The marketplace built in the SSC provided more income and reduced the percentage of luxuries needed to keep its citizens celebrating.

Early Republic became quite pleasant, even with tiny cities, and the difference in the rate of tech acquisitions was quite dramatic, with quite a few more in hand by 1250 BC than in the 776 game, where many techs during Monarchy had come through huts. In addition, the carrying costs of Polytheism and Monotheism had been avoided. The main problem under early Republic was getting enough gold. Some steps were taken to increase income in this game, and that will be the subject of the next installment.

[solo]

There never seems to be enough gold

A major problem with early landing games is the lack of gold, especially in the early part of the game. After founding a few cities, the human player attains the Supreme power rating. This is great for extracting tribute from the AI, but this is not allowed under the Republic form of government. Early Republic is a must for fast research, and unless an AI has tipped some gold from a hut, chances are slim of extracting any tribute before the switch is made to Republic. In emergencies, oedo years can be used to extort tribute, but doing this too often slows down research. Gifts from allies is another source of income, but the Supreme rating limits this to just one AI alliance, and not much accumulates to beg for in the short time span of early landing games. That leaves only 4 sources of income:

1) Huts: You can count on some income, but the timing and amounts are totally unpredictable. Early exploration is all that can be done to increase your share of huts. On average, the more huts tipped, the more gold you’ll get.

2) Barbarian leaders: At a hefty 150 gold per leader, this is the best source of early income, and barbarian appearances and actions are actually quite predictable. Although they do appear at other times, starting in 3250 BC and every 16 turns afterwards, a new barbarian ship always appears like clockwork, somewhere on an ocean tile. The location of this appearance tile is randomly chosen, but this doesn’t matter, because what happens afterwards is entirely predictable. The barbarian pirates head for the nearest target, which is a city or unit owned by you or by one of the AI. Then it attacks, and when it usually fails, the leader retreats. It pays big time to be in the vicinity with a horseman or chariot (or even a trireme) when this happens. This is not hard to do, either, since early explorations yield a number of NON units of these types when huts are tipped. Instead of bringing these guys home, it pays to leave them in strategic locations, near AI cities. Wait for your barb bankers and they will come, usually giving advance notice of their arrival. This is the best source of early gold, so it pays to park in strategic locations and just wait for it. I happened to miss one opportunity in my game. This is when the barbs took Paris from the French. Otherwise, I was ready and waiting to count up all those gold coins.

3) Income: Although the emphasis in the SSC is on science, a marketplace should be built first. It increases income immediately, and every little bit helps, and these little bits really add up turn after turn. When it’s time to celebrate the SSC up in size, fewer luxuries are needed. Let the SSC grow first, too, so it will produce more gold, and then let it learn by adding scientific improvements and wonders. Outside of its mandatory use during celebrations, make sure that all cities can stay happy with the luxury slider set to zero. That 20% income per turn will make a big difference in a Republic’s finances.

4) Caravans: The best source of gold of all, but it takes some time to get trade going. Therefore it pays to get the SSC growing first, and to have it produce and ship off some early caravans to an overseas AI port demanding your goodies. The bigger the SSC is by the time they arrive, the more gold (and beakers) these caravans will produce. This is a major reason why I started off with Shakespeare’s Theater as my first wonder, and deferred the construction of scientific wonders until afterwards. I got more gold, coming earlier in the game, when it was needed the most.

By doing the above, I usually, but not always, had enough gold on hand to help rush the early growth of my SSC and its helpers. A little more gold than usual from huts during this particular game did not hurt, either.

[solo]

In Civ II, the emptier your brain is, the more you can learn

In real life, knowledge is cumulative. The more you know, the easier it is to learn something new. In Civ II tech costs are cumulative, so it is necessary to zero in on techs that help you learn faster and to avoid ones that do not help you do this. The only free techs are the bonus ones given with the start. Techs from huts and techs from trades provide instant knowledge, but unless this instant knowledge happens to be the next tech desired the most, its acquisition just creates an added delay in learning the next vital tech. Ideally, the acquisition of any tech should be deferred until it becomes the one needed the most. For example, The Wheel may be available from an AI very early in the game, but the time to trade for it is when the acquisition of Engineering becomes crucial. The circumstances of individual games differ, so the optimal order of tech acquisition can vary quite a bit for various early landing games.

Sometimes deferring trades long enough makes them unnecessary. For example, if the AI are diligent in researching military techs and are able to learn Tactics before it becomes vital, it is theoretically possible (but very unlikely) to complete a game without having to learn or trade for Warrior Code, Horseback Riding, Monarchy, Feudalism, Chivalry, Leadership and Conscription. Another reason for deferring AI trades is to make use of them to prevent be presented by lists of unwanted techs when deciding what to research next. Oedo’s tech tree research allows one to determine when these kinds of trades are necessary.

In this particular game, I had some very good luck in the beginning, since the French, who were rated Strong and who were keying off my tech lead, helped me get to the first vital tech, Republic, much earlier than expected. Shortly after that, the barbarians captured Paris, and my initial luck with research assistance from the AI was the only luck I had during the game. The Romans became rated Strong next, but their proximity and contact with the French and Mongols (my key civ), resulted in AI tech trading that slowed down their research. The only fresh tech the Romans learned for the rest of the game was Refrigeration, which was only of use in a late trade I needed to make to change the research list. Besides the help from La Fayette to get to early Republic, the only techs I was able to trade for during the game were Seafaring, Warrior Code, Horseback Riding, The Wheel, Iron Working, Mathematics and Mysticism. However, getting Republic so early more than made up for this lack of AI erudition.

In this game I was successful in getting an alliance with the Aztecs. Every source of income helps, so 50 gold now and then, as a gift came in very handy. However, nothing is worse than asking an ally for a gift and having your hopes crushed when being presented with Warrior Code instead of with some more gold. The Aztecs were isolated, though, and were not privy to such esoteric knowledge, so obtaining an alliance with them worked out very well, since the worst I could expect from a gift request was just a refusal.

As for techs from huts, I got Construction at an opportune time, but received Theory of Gravity, Economics and Chemistry a lot earlier than I would have preferred. Since techs that come from huts are most likely NOT to be what is wanted the most, I deferred tipping quite a few huts on the map until I was able to learn Invention. Doing this also increased the odds of getting more gold from huts afterwards, since techs could no longer be a hut outcome.

Tech priorities after Republic in this game were Map Making and then Trade. Then I went for Medicine quickly, so I would be able to build Shakespeare’s Theater and get the SSC growing quickly. After that the priority was on the scientific techs, University and Astronomy. Iron Working came by trade from the AI in time to learn Bridge Building, which I needed to complete roads along the river on part of the route between my SSC and Rome. When this road was completed in 375 BC, beakers increased instantly by 12% in the SSC and 1 turn advances were attained for the first time in the game. This was the major difference between this game and the 776 game, where one turn advances from science were not available until after 200 AD. In the 776 game, the 1 turn advances attained previous to that date had come with assistance from caravans rehomed through the SSC.

The next vital tech after Bridge Building was Invention, followed by Democracy. In fact, the switch to Democracy was made in turns prior to the completion of the SSC to Rome road connection. The 100% research rate allowed by Democracy was needed to sustain 1 turn advances until Railroad could be discovered. This became the next priority, since when the Atlanta-Rome railroad route was completed in 125 BC, the SSC beaker capacity went up another 12%, sustaining 1 turn advances further along the tech tree until the discovery of Automobile allowed superhighways. The following target tech was Computers, which allowed a research lab. Plans worked out just right in this game, as far as science went, since there was just enough scientific capacity to make the 1 tech per turn steps up to the next tech that could help in some way to increase science. Getting 1 turn advances so early, and being able to sustain them through the rest of the game, was the key factor in being able to land before 500 BC on a standard map.

[solo]

The last installment. Thank goodness!

Trade, the formula for success

All these new discoveries about trade recently have led to many advantages when playing the 476 AD game. This new knowledge supplanted any advantages gained in the 776 game by the use of caravan re-homing. However, all of these new trade formulas can be quite imposing and time consuming to use, so how this new knowledge was used, and when I felt it could be safely ignored, will be discussed here.

As Samson has proven, the commodities available for a city’s supply and demand lists depend on many factors, the main ones being the terrain found within the city’s radius, and the city’s map coordinates. It is possible to choose commodities you prefer by figuring all of this out using his formulas, but for my SSC and its surrounding 7 helpers, I must confess that I thought the location of specials and favorable terrain to be of paramount importance, and founded these cities based solely on these factors. Since I would be using helper cities mostly for building caravans, I did not bother calculating any trade information for them, although I did include them on the chronological list of cities I compiled during the game to keep track of city solo-cycle turns.

Since most trade would involve my SSC, I calculated all the trade information pertaining to it, including which commodities were apt to become available and when this was likely to happen. This was a lot of work, but for this game, re-homing was not option, and it was vital to obtain as many profitable trades as were possible out of the SSC. First, I used the SSC’s coordinates, to calculate what its wildcards would be, coming up with a supply wildcard of beads and a demand wildcard of cloth, which would be in effect until 32 techs had been acquired. Neither one of these were too thrilling, but the set of wildcards for the second half of the game were going to be gems on the supply side and silk on the demand side. Both of these had very good trade bonuses. When working with individual commodities, I also discovered that my SSC would become a very strong producer of wine, which pays good bonuses, too.

With this information in hand, and as I explored the map, I was able to tell whether or not various AI civs would be demanding the profitable commodities that my SSC supplied. Each time a new AI city was revealed to me, I calculated its wildcards and also made an estimate, based on its terrain and location, as to which commodities it was likely to demand the most, and about when this would happen. By doing this, I discovered that the Japanese cities were located so as to become strong demanders for wine. Two of their cities, including the largest, Kyoto, had a demand wildcard of gems, also, but this would go away after the Japanese acquired 32 techs. Since the Japanese were located about half way around the world and on a different continent, they were at the ideal location for profitable trades, too, making them the perfect trading partner for my SSC. All I had to do to was make sure that their total number of techs did not exceed 32 during the game, and this was easy enough to do.

When planning for my SSC trade, I also wanted to scout the map, looking for good locations for adding my 9th and 10th cities, to be founded after the switch to Democracy. I found two fertile sites and set about developing them with nomads I had gotten from huts on this overseas continent. Since the continent number was 5 and since these two colonies were well into to Eastern Hemisphere, this guaranteed that both would become strong suppliers of silk, matching the demand wildcard of my SSC. Thus, by picking optimal locations for these two cities, I was able to generate some profitable trade bonuses by sending their silk freights to my SSC.

Another step I took, later in the game, when my helper cities had finished producing wonder caravans for my SSC was to start trading their best commodities, too. By gifting techs to AI other than the Japanese, it was possible to manipulate demands to some extent in order to make the most out of these trades. By keeping track of the solo-cycle year for every AI city, I could also be sure that commodities sent their way would still be in demand when they arrived. Gone was the disappointment of shipping something across the map, just to see the AI city change it demands a turn or two before delivery. During the whole game only two cargos were delivered that were not in demand. These two were two of the three needed to establish the road and rail trade route bonus between my SSC and Rome. However, these bonuses were desired immediately, and they more than made up for the fact the commodities used to create then were not in demand.

Another discovery I had made about trade, which I was able to apply to my SSC in this game, was a trick (now dubbed by Samson as the “wonder bread” trick) that allowed me to unblock commodities appearing on the SSC supply list. I eliminated the need of waiting until my SSC’s solo-cycle turn, the only other trigger that could unblock these supplies. This let me keep building the very profitable wine and gems freights and sending them to the Japanese for huge payouts (the best was almost 1000 gold for gems to Kyoto). After one set of wine and gems were delivered, this trick involved building a food caravan in my SSC and adding it to a wonder (It did not matter where the wonder was being built or whether it was completed). As soon as the food caravan from the SSC was added to the wonder, wine and gems became unblocked. The reason this worked was because of the road and rail trade routes that had been established earlier in the game with Rome. Whenever wine or gems were delivered later, they did not create or appear on any of the SSC’s 3 trade routes. Instead, they went into “limbo”, from which they could be released by using the “wonder bread” trick.

Another thing I did, which I think is worth mentioning, was to keep the knowledge of Nuclear Fission out of AI hands for as long as possible. Uranium has a way of dominating demand lists, and I did not want it supplanting other demanded commodities being sent to AI cities. Since I was not supplying any Uranium myself, I did not want any of the AI cities demanding it.

So, to conclude, it was not that much work at all getting a lot of benefits from all this new information we have learned about how trade works. Along with other newer strategies, a very successful game resulted from this map without having the stigma associated with the re-homing of freights in the original 776 AD game. It was fun, learning how to do much better, using the same start.

[La Fayette]

solo
It seems that your brain was so empty that you really learnt a lot
Sharing it with us is very kind, thank you!
...and if my friends the Gits feel like having a look at the GL ... after bottle number (n+1) ... I'm fairly sure they will agree with me that your installments deserve to be transfered over there.

[Scouse Gits]

An inspired game solo with a very instructive commentary. I like the lean approach to wonder building...early Medicine so avoiding unhappiness in Atlanta and obviating the need for Mike's. Did you ever consider building Darwin?

I noticed some of the helper cities had under three routes. Was this because they failed to supply demanded commodities?

-------------------------------------

SG(2)

[solo]

Thanks LaFayette and SG,

I did consider Darwin, but it takes caravans I needed for Apollo's later and for space ship parts. However, if it had been needed to finish research in time for a pre-500 AD landing, I would have used it.

The two helpers having a library and university each had three routes, and that provided enough extra science for 1 turn advances. Caravans produced by other helpers were only sent out for trade if I knew I could obtain 200 or more gold by using them this way. Otherwise, I thought it more efficient and vital to use caravans from these helpers for wonders and SS parts.

The more I try it, the more I'm liking Shakespeare's first, before Copernicus. I know that Samson would disagree, and may shortly prove me wrong, but I figure it this way:

After 3 or 4 turns growth after getting ST, beakers increase rapidly, too, almost matching the effect of Copernicus. The extra trade arrows are a big bonus, providing more tax and trade income earlier. Also, with ST first, the SSC does not need a colosseum, getting by with the initial temple.

I'm am trying a new game on a large map, to see what the latest ideas can handle its huge tech costs.

[samson]

I'm still looking for the perfect medium map start to challenge you, Solo. Not easy to come by.

Copernicus is by far the most valuable Wonder on a small map, where ST may not be needed at all.

On a large map, I think SG(2)'s 875AD landing is the mark to beat.

[Scouse Gits]

samson/solo ... below is the 4000BC start for that game in 2.42, playing as the Vikings. My 875 landing was a restart after knowing a lot about the map. No freights were ever rehomed.
Starting techs are reasonable with: Alphabet, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws and Masonry. The real bonuses were the large number of huts, the proximity of two gold mountains, the massive amount of real estate and the Indians who can be found early in the game.

-------------------------------

SG(2)

[solo]

Wow SG(2)! Well done on that large map game! I was unaware of this one or of details about it, but know it will be a challenge to top 875!

The start sounds interesting and I might give a game a try using it if my current game does not work out. I was a bit late making contact with the Indians, who were far away, and almost decided to build MPE to be able to get those tech discounts earlier, but then I bumped into one of their warriors. Two more AI to find and contact.

Samson, suitable starts on medium maps are few and far between. Why not try one of the ones I attached here? Were you waiting for my permission?