Going for 500 AD landings on standard maps

[Bloody Monk]

Congratulations Solo!!

Less than three months ago you launched this thread to break the 500a threshold for landings. Now you are breaking 300a!!!

Wondering how long before 10a falls....

Happy New Year

[Caesar the Great]

*jaw drops*

congrats

[Bloody Monk]

Hello Solo,

I have been looking at your 476 game and have a few questions if you don't mind.

1) I notice there is still a temple in Atlanta. Even with Shakespear's is a temple still necessary?? Or is it just that you never needed to sell it, cash being abundant...
EDIT: What I'm really wondering is if you are going to build Shake's, do you still need a temple??

2) At what point did you move the Cap to Atlanta??

3) How quickly did you: lay down the first 7 central cities; build the Lib in NY; build trireme and start exploring??

4) What WOW came next after ST??

Thanks for your help. I'm trying to figure out this approach.

[solo]

BM,

1) The temple was used to get to size three, before Shakespeare's Theater was built. The switch to Republic is made before ST is available, so martial law does not work at size 3.

You are right that the temple could have been sold later to raise more cash, if needed. The same goes for the aqueduct and sewer system, once the SSC has reached maximum size. They can be sold to raise extra emergency cash.

The reason I hold on to these improvements was for just such emergency situations, where cash runs out and just a little more is desperately needed. During this game, I did not need to tap this emergency reserve, so they were left in place.

2) I moved the capital to Atlanta just after the launch, to keep it a bit safer, in case of AI or barbarian attacks. This was probably an unnecessary precaution, but it doesn't hurt to play it safe.

3) The first 6 cities are laid down as quickly as possible. After founding my capital and New York, I got an advanced tribe and a nomad from huts almost immediately. Two more settlers were quickly built to found 2 more of the the original six cities. Some gold from early huts helped to rush these settlers. By the time the switch was made to Repuclic, another settler had been built and another nomad found, allowing the immediate construction of cities 7 and 8. Cities 9 and 10, on the other continent were developed by nomads found there, and then founded when the switch was made to Democracy. Other advanced tribes tipped from huts were disbanded by making settlers, which joined the others making roads, etc.

Two triremes were rushed as soon as Map Making was discovered, a tech given earliest priority. At about this time, explorers had tipped all available huts and had found the AI on the home continent, and needed something more to do. Locating all the overseas AI early was important, so that I could station NON units found from huts nearby to wait for barbarian leaders that bounced off AI cities and units. Barb leaders became the best source of early income.

The library in New York was built after netting a barb leader near the Carthaginians. This happened about a half dozen turns before ST was built in Atlanta, and took a few turns off the research of techs being learned during that period, before the SSC had been able to expand and contribute more beakers.

4) The next wonder after ST was Copernicus, to quickly double the available SSC beakers while the SSC grew.

I found the 476 game to be much more difficult than subsequent games on large maps, even though I had better luck with huts and barb leaders on this medium map in the early going.

Don't forget that although it was a random start, I had used it in the previous rehoming game, and that pre-knowledge of the map lends a significant advantage, since I knew where I wanted my SSC and knew all of the AI locations in advance.

I hope this info helps some. I may add some more details in a bit, especially about helper cities and how I develop and use them to promote early and rapid SSC growth, an idea that seems to work very well on medium and especially well on large maps.

[Bloody Monk]

Thank you, Solo!! You are so incredibly generous with your knowledge. After some real life intervention, I'll study your ideas fully. Just wanted to quickly express my appreciation now.

[solo]

BM,

Thanks, and you're welcome. It's been fun to share ideas. Here is some more about helper cities:

Unless they can help, helper cities are no help at all

This may seem obvious, but during early exploration, huts that are tipped may produce an advanced tribe in a fertile region or a nomad nearby an ideal city site having 4 excellent specials, but in the early part of an early landing game, only cities having proximity to the SSC are useful in promoting its early and rapid growth. Having “colonies” early in the game only increase corruption and promote unhappiness in productive helpers adjacent to the SSC.

Ideally, at the time the SSC reaches size three, the switch will have been made to Republic, Medicine will have been discovered, and surrounding helpers will have produced and delivered the six caravans needed to make Shakespeare’s Theater.

So ideally, and in order to do its duty and deliver its own caravan to the SSC in time, a helper must:

1) Be just a few steps away from the SSC.

2) Be founded on grassland, preferably rivered grassland.

3) Have enough extra grassland (on rivers, if possible) so that it can grow without having to irrigate, and/or have one or two food specials within its radius.

4) Have two or more forests, or specials that give extra shields without mines, within its radius.

5) Have access to the ocean.

It is unlikely all, many, or even any of the 6 helper locations will fit this ideal. It is also possible that the start may offer a special situation (such as the gold mountain site used by New York in my 476 game), but all helpers should come reasonably close to fitting the ideal requirements above. Thus:

1) It is no good having only 5 out of the 6 caravans needed to build Shakespeare’s Theater, and then having to wait 10 more turns for that 6th one to arrive. That last helper’s caravan might just as well have started out from Mars, for all the good it does. However, the caravans from helpers on the fringes of the core group can be rushed, as needed, so that they have more time for traveling.

2 and 3) Helpers need 3 (preferably 4) extra food to grow quickly to size 3, a good size for making caravans quickly. Once at that size, the extra food is needed to support that helper’s settler under Republic, and to support city workers wanting to switch from grassland to forested tiles to increase production. Try and do all these things after founding a helper on a hill, on a forested tile or on the plains, and it becomes obvious that grass is best for city hall.

4) Shoot for at least five shields and one supported settler from each size 3 helper.

5) It’s best if each helper has the capability to build, support and accommodate a trireme. Perhaps only two helpers like this are required, but having more on the coasts increases flexibility and options.


Helpers should get to size 3 as soon as they can. Since a temple is required to keep each helper happy at size 3 under Republic, helpers should start on these first, once 6 cities are in place. Hopefully, enough gold will come from huts and barb leaders to finish off some temples as cities reach size two. These cities can continue by building triremes or diplomats, to continue explorations. A few of the military units tipped from huts can be stationed in other cities, allowing them to finish off their temples before reaching size three.

Once at size three and with a temple in place, a helper is ready to make the settler it will support. I like to micro-manage this, timing the build of each settler so that it coincides with the production of 30 food in the city’s food box. Sometimes slower growing helpers that are good producers are better off making a trireme, or even a caravan first, so that their settler is built to coincide with the next full food box.

By micro-managing settler production this way, the city can grow to size 3 again, immediately, where it is most productive. Most of these settlers will be needed to road and irrigate the SSC, so that its growth will be uninterrupted once it begins to celebrate. Others can start connecting helpers to the SSC with roads. After the settlers are built and put to work, each helper becomes a caravan producer, to help build ST and the other wonders needed by the SSC.

Of course unique situations create exceptions to these general rules for developing helper cities. For example, some helpers may by strong on shields but lack enough food to support settlers, whereas others with extra food may be able to support two. The former could make two caravans while the latter produces an extra settler. But for the most part, the build order of temple, settler and then caravan has worked best for me for helper cities used in early landing games.

[Scouse Gits]

Thanks solo for a very helpful insight. Congratulations on the 295 landing.

------------------------

SG(2)

[La Fayette]

solo

I join BM and thank you
... but I don't read you too carefully just now, because I am busy playing the game and I would like to finish it before I have a second try making use of your very good advice.

(La Fayette, now in the early ADs, but still very far from victory)

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by solo
BM,

1) The temple was used to get to size three, before Shakespeare's Theater was built. The switch to Republic is made before ST is available, so martial law does not work at size 3.

This is a major learning experience as I have never gone Rep this early and I didn't put those pieces together. Sadly, facts don't equate with understanding in the absence of experience. Thanks for breaking it to me gently.

Originally posted by solo

You are right that the temple could have been sold later to raise more cash, if needed. The same goes for the aqueduct and sewer system, once the SSC has reached maximum size. They can be sold to raise extra emergency cash.

The reason I hold on to these improvements was for just such emergency situations, where cash runs out and just a little more is desperately needed. During this game, I did not need to tap this emergency reserve, so they were left in place..

I figured that you didn't need the $$. As for the temple, I was wondering if the 40g early plus stopping the maintanence expense might argue for dispossal.

Originally posted by solo

2) I moved the capital to Atlanta just after the launch, to keep it a bit safer, in case of AI or barbarian attacks. This was probably an unnecessary precaution, but it doesn't hurt to play it safe.

Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't think it would be necessary earlier; but, after launch it seems a good play.

Thanks for the other bits about cities, WOW, and the other questions. It is very helpful.

Bloody Monk

[Bloody Monk]

Solo,

Your piece on Helper Cities is a Gem!! Thanks much. I am trying to absorb all this and have a go at your map at the same time. The doing of it all is the best anchor for this new knowledge.

There is seemingly a lot of tricky trade-offs in getting this job done. I need a troop for martial law under Mon and a Temple for Rep; and, I need Settlers for new cities, roads, and improving the SSC; but also, triremes for exploring and constant camels. Oh, and every city to size three.

And that's just to get me to the ST WOW--in...1400b. Well, that date may be a bit ambitious for the old Monk, but I'm plugging away. Can't tell you how much fun I'm having with this!!!

[Bloody Monk]

Solo,

This is fun and am learning a lot in the doing of it all. I make no pretext that I am actually playing a game as I am making liberal use of your notes, following along like a cookbook, as it were. I have used your city sites except Wash where I misremembered.

I alternate between being amazed and confused. I did not go Republic until the 1700-1650 cycle. It just seemed too daunting trying to build camels in 2-shield cities, and without the 'demand' $ possibilities. And most of my cities lacked Temples until 2100.

However, with the cash from tribute and the 10 extra shields per turn (while a Monarchy) I built ST in 1500. Now I am raising camels for an Observatory. There are a few questions I have if you would be so kind, again...

1) I know it is hard to compare games (the hut outcomes alone could make for huge variability); but, I was wondering what I gave up in researching techs by staying in Monarchy.

If you have the .sav for the year 1700, I had 17 advances and the rate was 6 turns. As a Republic in 1650, the rate was at 4 turns. (This did not include a Library in New York, which I did not complete until 1550.)

2) Do you recall when Cope's was completed?? And Colossus??

I was a bit surprised to see the Colossus in your Atlanta. Were you able to get your camels' worth from it?? And am I correct that you were referring to HG and not COL in the following quote from the "One Turn Advances" piece on page one of this thread??

"...the extra trade arrows provided by the Colossus are superfluous, since 1 turn advances can be secured with an SSC even without the help of this wonder. Thus, Pottery can be bypassed, avoiding the carrying costs of one more tech."

I could be wrong but I don't think those two (Pott-Col) go together.

3) At what point did you start trading from Atlanta to get its routes and is there a strategy about the order of the trade goods you send out (position 1,2 or 3)??

Well, thanks again for sharing your wisdom.

[solo]

BM,

Sorry for the delay in replying, but I have switched internet providers and it took a bit to get my account here back in order, allowing me to post.

I'll bet you located Washington one tile south of where I did. I wanted it on the coast so it could build triremes and zip them to Atlanta to shift support. Making triremes is a helper job, and Atlanta had better things to do.

I have found my save for 1700 BC and will attach it. This is when I was ready to build ST, myself. Doing so yourself, just 4 turns later is worth a pat on the back. It's tough to get those first 6 caravans ready in good time.

1) By staying in Monarchy you're rate of tech acquisitions can be much slower than it is in Republic. By 1700, I had a little over 20 advances. I did get quite a few of the earlier ones from the AI, but no more help from them later in the game. My early library in New York, made possible by killing a barb leader, must have made a big difference, too. I do not remember getting more than one or two techs from huts. I hope you were remembering to gift all new techs to the Mongols, the key civ.

2) Copernicus came after ST, probably about 10 turns or so later. The Colossus was added later, but I forget exactly when. I did mean the Colossus in the quote that you refer to, and not the HG, and was mistaken in associating the Colossus with Pottery instead of Bronze Working. Of course with temples in helpers and with ST in the SSC, the HG is not needed, and would not really help much if used, because it expires too soon.

I think the Collosus is well worth building in medium and large map games, since it adds many trade arrows, giving a good increase to beakers and to income. In small map games, which concentrate more on early science, the SSC has enough beakers, allowing this wonder to be skipped. Why add extra science, when you already have enough?

3) I send the first three caravans from Atlanta to Rome, to get that road connection trade route bonus in place quickly and to make sure that these 3 routes "stick". After that I trade with overseas AI cities demanding Atlanta's goods for the higher income they provide. If you do it in this order you will notice that the 3 Rome routes (with higher values) always stay in place in Atlanta's display, unaffected by subsequent trades. Trade elsewhere first, and you might find it difficult to get those prized Rome routes into all 3 trade positions.

If Rome's routes are established first and the road bonus is obtained, the order of those trades or ones subsequent to them does not really matter. However, in a game where the road bonus is not a factor, I like to trade the middle commodity first, as this gives the best chance of keeping the supply list unblocked later on.

Well, that's it for now, and it sounds like your game is going pretty well in spite of the extended stay in Monarchy. In my game, I got to Republic quite early, but a lot of this was due to research help towards it by the French. Perhaps they were not so accomodating for you, or researched other subjects in your game.

[Bloody Monk]

Where are the milita??

Solo,

Thanks for the quick reply and the .sav. I hope your new ISP works out.

I just started looking over the save and the thing that jumps out most is your empty cities. I had no idea this was a safe tactic. By putting a warrior in each city I was way behind in completing temples and starting on camels.

With the Neighbors we have I never imagined one could get away with leaving the flag down everywhere. When did you start on "Homeland Security" in this game?? And is this a usual tactic for the early game??

Washington I built on the river adjacent and south, as you guessed. At the time (before you sent the paper on Helper Cities) I just didn't think ahead about ships. And thanks for the "pat on the back", but really, I was just following your plan.

1) I did remember to do a regular tech gift to the Mongols; but, I didn't begin trading tech with anyone yet, as I was still researching Medicine in 1700. I also had yet to meet the Japanese or the Aztecs and had tripped many fewer huts.(only one boat finished so far)

I had 17 techs (not 13) to your 22, but I'm not sure how many of the difference were due to Republic, huts, or trading. (Looks like two, Iron Working and Wheel, came from trading; and Chemistry, at the least, from Huts.) I also had 95g less (Huts??).

2&3) The other big benifit from Republic is celebrating up in size. I assumed you built the Observatory next, but how soon did you build an aqueduct -v- the three routes to Rome?? And did you use the first camels from Atlanta for ST and Cope's or to send to Rome??

Thanks, Solo.

[solo]

BM,

1) When you are rated Supreme and are keeping the neighboring AI attitudes high enough with tech gifts, they will not attack. You have to play this way enough to feel secure about this, but I assure you that they can be kept peaceful through tech gifts up until you launch your space ship. (Things are different in Civ versions ToT and even MGE, but I assume you are using Civ 2.42)

The only risk is from barbarians, but they usually give a turn or two warning, letting you rush a defender in time to protect the city under attack. I usually use a diplomat to do this, and bribe one barb to kill the other, if need be. In that save, notice that barbs are about to go after Paris, which made me nervous enough to start a phalanx in New York, my most vulnerable city, just in case.

In early landing games, you have to take your chances with barbarians. I have lost a few games early to them by taking this chance, but in games where they attack elsewhere or when I can defend in time, it pays to put resources into other things, rather than invest them in shield-consuming defenders, since they are hardly ever needed.

Finally, if you lose a city to the barbarians, all is not lost unless it is your SSC. Losing a little helper city is not a big deal, unless you are emotionally attached to the idea of keeping it as your own. We humans can be quite possesive, and irrationally so, when it comes to keeping our own cities in Civ II games!

Earlier in this game, when I felt more vulnerable, I did have some warriors in some cities long enough to get my temples established, but disbanded them right afterwards to help rush caravans and to free up the shields they were hogging.

2) How to deal with ships is a major consideration in early landing games, because you have to wait for galleons OR have all ships homed to the SSC when it comes time to shift to Democracy, which is an event you do not want to delay.

This is complicated by the fact that you want good payoffs from caravans delivered early on, and that when you have acquired both Navigation and Invention, these payoffs are cut dramatically. If you delay Invention, you also delay Democracy and delay the benefit of using engineers. If you delay Navigation, you are stuck with triremes and caravels and you also delay Railroad and the use of freights.

For these reasons I prefer an SSC with coastal access, allowing ships built nearby to be rehomed. Washington was on the coast for this reason.

3) Yes, 13 techs seemed a bit low to me, even when you consider your delay getting to Republic. 17 sounds about right to me, when comparing games.

Huts act funny sometimes (and thanks to hutfinder I zero in on them as quickly as I can with two early triremes). In the game I played with SG's map, I always seemed to be getting advanced tribes. In my first game with this map, I kept getting techs from huts. In my 476 game, I was getting more than my fair share of gold.

4) In the save, you'll see a trireme headed to Japan with a caravan from Atlanta. By the time it was delivered, Atlanta had already celebrated up high enough in size to give a good payoff (several hundred gold), which allowed me to rush the aqueduct, just before it was needed to continue the celebration.

In my last post, I forgot to mention that my very first SSC caravan was shipped to an overseas AI, because the need for gold is greatest at this point in the game. It was the following three, delivered to Rome after a connecting road was in place, that gave me the high continuing trade route bonus. (This happened much later). In between these events, many caravans that were produced by Atlanta were used to contribute towards wonders being built there.

I hope that clears up some questions. I would be interested in seeing a save from your game, too, the next time you update here with a post.

I am trying another standard map game now, which came with 8 free techs at the start! Not bad!

Attached is the save of this newest start.

[Scouse Gits]

solo ... An exceptional start for a Medium World - which I raced to inspect

Actually it's seven starting techs ... eight is very rare on a Standard Map.

We should really take one of these delicious starts and try an early landing succession game with you as chief tutor at The Institute

-------------------------------

SG(2)