SG, Horse, (Chris 62?) we will probably start a regular PBEM game (maybe with more settlers from the beginning) here: New Game. (Also La Fayette and Mea are prepared to play, although they didn't post yet). Everybody is welcomed.
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Originally posted by SlowThinker
Take the corruption formula (Corruption and waste )as an example: the constants that affect the corruption level under different governments are very useful for strategic decisions.
The facts collected in the Info: combat thread are very important. Do you want to say that each player had his own version of collected combat fact and held it back?
However... if you really care to know the "exact" level of corruption before putting a city down... or carrying the odds of battle out to 5 decimal points before making an attack, it's no surprise it takes you an hour to do anything. Some of us can make the right decision based on experience, instead of being dictated to by quasi meaningless charts and graphsKeep on Civin'
RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron O
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Originally posted by rah
Does anyone else find it ironic that a thread started to make fun of it might encourage using it more?I believe Saddam because his position is backed up by logic and reason...David Floyd
i'm an ignorant greek...MarkG
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Originally posted by SlowThinker
Take the corruption formula (Corruption and waste )as an example: the constants that affect the corruption level under different governments are very useful for strategic decisions. But it looks nobody missed them last 5 years.
I suppose most players gained some intuitive notion about the corruption level in different governments and they were contented.
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I think the point my brother is trying to make is that for things, i.e. trade routes. Yes we know you get more if you're connected by road along the optimal path, or with another player, or demand, or on a another continent, etc etc etc it pays more. But is it critical to know that it will pay 190 gold vs. 210? NO it is not. And it shouldn't take 20 extra minutes to figure out. Combat, yes everyone (or at least the good players) had their own version that was probably at least 90% correct. Yes if I'm attacking i'll do a quick calculation of the odds, but does it have to be perfect. NO it does not. It doesn't matter if I think I'm attacking at 14 to 4 and it's really 13 to 4, it's close enough to calculate approximately how many unit's you're going to need to take out a fortified position. Randomness always adds enough fuzzy to your calcs that you have to pad in order to increase your odds of success.
If I calculated everything perfectly before ever making a decision in the game, I would either just quit, or people would stop playing with me when my turns took too long. The good players do quick calcs/approximation and make quick decisions. And if you can't, I don't consider you a good player. (or I will avoid playing you at all costs to save frustration)
People that take the extra time to calculate it down to the 10th decimal place don't impress me, since that accuracy is not necessary to play a simple GAME FOR FUN.
RAH
Damn, took so long to post, everyone jumped in and said basically the same thing.It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O
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Originally posted by DrSpike
Originally posted by SlowThinker
...I suppose most players gained some intuitive notion about the corruption level in different governments and they were contented.
And another point: you need many games to get the intuitive opinion. But the fact that the monarchy/republic ratio of lost trade is 4/3 brings you a fast and clear information.
Originally posted by rah
Combat, yes everyone (or at least the good players) had their own version that was probably at least 90% correct.
Originally posted by Ming
There is really no big difference between a 3 to one advantage and a 3.15 to one advantage...
Originally posted by rah
If I calculated everything perfectly before ever making a decision in the game, I would either just quit, or people would stop playing with me when my turns took too long.
Oh, you ordinary (MP) players...
Originally posted by Ming
Some of us can make the right decision based on experienceLast edited by SlowThinker; May 30, 2002, 18:45.Civ2 "Great Library Index": direct download, Apolyton attachment
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Originally posted by SlowThinker
I like to count if it is better to build a new city or to mine hills etc.
And even if a chart were to direct you that, based on some obscure production difference, the mine might be better... that chart must be ignoring the exponential growth factor of an additional city that can then crank out yet another settler...
MP is more about strategy and tactics then it is exact numbers.
Again... you have not brought up any factor that is so critical that it applies to the overall game situation.
One that does matter is the number of beakers needed. You would be surprised on how anal some of us get to maximize it for getting a science. Now there is one that can have a significant effect on the game. Knowing you need that one extra beaker and how to squeeze it out so that you can revolt on an ODEO year... big difference. But at least we do that one during others people turns so we don't slow the game downKeep on Civin'
RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron O
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Originally posted by SlowThinker
Why the h**ll didn't you try to get your versions together? This is the point I don't understand.
and.
"But there is a big difference between 3 to 3 advantage and 3.15 to 3 advantage."
I have to laugh. If the whole basis for your attack is that you'd attack at 3.15 to 3 but do it differently at 3 to 3, you've obviously don't have a good grasp of statistics. OK, revised to.... Or at least how they're applied.
RAHIt's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O
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Unlike you slow we don't try to pretend we're scholars and stop at nothing in the pursuit of useless knowledge. After all you've learned and all your pathetic little posts what are you? You are nothing. You can't beat anyone in the game much less get them to play you and you still can't seem to convince anyone you are intelligent.
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Originally posted by Ming
Some of us can make the right decision based on experience, instead of being dictated to by quasi meaningless charts and graphs
Isn't the important point not that we make the 'right' decision based on intuition or calculus, but that we make a decision with which we are happy to live and take whatever consequences may come - this is a game remember - but really the same principal governs life as well ...
SG[1]"Our words are backed by empty wine bottles! - SG(2)
"One of our Scouse Gits is missing." - -Jrabbit
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SlowThinker pm'd me to invite me to this thread. Is the basic issue whether or not minutae are of any relevance? Rah pointed out the beaker counting that does matter. Does combat detail matter? Somewhat - BTW, rah, 3.15 vs 3 has much better odds than 3 vs 3 That small tip above even attack/defense ratio tips the scales a lot more than the tiny raw difference of 0.15).
Does this apply at game time? I, for one, do not use it. I condensed all that combat info primarily as a way to exercise my dusty math skills (sorry, ST!). The topic was one I found interesting, but the most I'll consider before charging my unit is the simple attack value vs the defender's modified defense value. Probably the same as anybody else does.
I think that it has its place in the occasional situation. But doing it for every decision seems like overkill. Too much micromanagement takes away from the big picture, and that is ultimately what the game is about. Have fun, play!The first President of the first Apolyton Democracy Game (CivII, that is)
The gift of speech is given to many,
intelligence to few.
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Originally posted by Eyes
Unlike you slow we don't try to pretend we're scholars and stop at nothing in the pursuit of useless knowledge. After all you've learned and all your pathetic little posts what are you? You are nothing.
Originally posted by Ming
And even if a chart were to direct you that, based on some obscure production difference, the mine might be better... that chart must be ignoring the exponential growth factor of an additional city that can then crank out yet another settler...
Secondly, that chart must compare the growth factor. (But the difference of a production and the difference of a production growth depend reciprocally). The more serious complication is that the exponent of that exponential growth changes in time: for example one course can bring you a fast growth now but a slower growth later, another course is reversed.
Originally posted by Ming
MP is more about strategy and tactics then it is exact numbers.
Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq
The topic was one I found interesting, but the most I'll consider before charging my unit is the simple attack value vs the defender's modified defense value. Probably the same as anybody else does.
Originally posted by rah
I have to laugh. If the whole basis for your attack is that you'd attack at 3.15 to 3 but do it differently at 3 to 3, you've obviously don't have a good grasp of statistics.
OK, this is not a big difference, but it is a difference.
Originally posted by Eyes
You can't beat anyone in the game
I am the type 2 and I can live very contentedly with an idea that I can't beat you.
Originally posted by SG[1]
Isn't the important point not that we make the 'right' decision based on intuition or calculus, but that we make a decision with which we are happy to live and take whatever consequences may come - this is a game remember - but really the same principal governs life as well ...Civ2 "Great Library Index": direct download, Apolyton attachment
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So you're saying that 3.15 to 3 is fought as though at 4 to 3?(\__/) Save a bunny, eat more Smurf!
(='.'=) Sponsored by the National Smurfmeat Council
(")_(") Smurf, the original blue meat! © 1999, patent pending, ® and ™ (except that "Smurf" bit)
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Originally posted by Straybow
So you're saying that 3.15 to 3 is fought as though at 4 to 3?
I guess that odds of 4 to 3 will be approx. 85%
I used the Boco's calculator to get the result of 3.15 to 3.
The link: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=25493Civ2 "Great Library Index": direct download, Apolyton attachment
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