HOTW2 Continues 2nd November 2001

[OzzyKP]

Well the way I look at it Deity is correct, since we are changing the ending now that the game is almost over we need to get agreement of all players involved to do so. We can't force Deity to abide by our wishes that he finish the game our way. Of course he can't force anyone else from just dropping out of the game, saying the hell with all you guys, and wagging a finger at Deity for screwing everything up like Drake was going to do.

Both decisions are well within the range of options a person has, and we can't force anyone to not choose one of the above options. But both options don't respect the desires of the majority of players in the game so it is wise to persuade whoever is making one of these choices to rethink and choose a path that is more agreeable to all those involved without stepping on toes. When Drake was going to just quit and divy up the Zulu empire this is what we did, it was proved to him that this is a poor decision and would hurt the majority of player's enjoyment of the game. This is what i feel needs to be done with Deity, Prom and Drake now.

Also let me point out that option 1 cannot be accepted unless ALL the players agree to it as well. It is also a deviation from the previously accepted ending of option 2. Although if someone is truly intent on just ending their involvement in the game they can just drop out and we will continue without them.

So a quick summery of our options and situation. A majority of players favor an alternite ending. However they cannot force their wishes upon the other three but must make their case to convince the other players. Ending the game now has one vote I believe and also requires a consensus to be accepted. If there is a hung jury and gridlock then we are stuck with playing the game out (option 2) but with some restrictions to speed game play along.

1. Prom
2. Deity, Drake
3. Raz, Belinda, Ozzy, Capo

Since we are no closer to a solution than last week I suggest we not play this week again. I can't make it anyways. I can't make the following week either, and no doubt most of the Americans won't be able to either. So I suggest we take the next two weeks off to sort this all out.

[belinda9]

well, okay:
When I comment there's only 2 ways the game can be played, I'm referring to the sttings, because either you click bloodlust (which is a conquest game) or you click spaceships allowed, which ostensibly means the game will coninue until someone biluds a spaceship OR you reach a particular year.
now, is that right, or not?
But if no one manages to build a spaceship, thus ending the game with it's teeny little computer brain calling the civ to reach Alpha Centauir "winner" then what you are left with is
play til the time runs out
which may or may not give you various reasons to call one or another "winner"
personally, I could care less about who gets that tag.

When I vote #3, basically I guess then what I'm voting for is play until time runs out. That doesn't necessarily, in my opinion, mean that every player in the game has to be working towards the same "end goal" in that time period. Maybe someone will be trying to build a spaceship. Maybe someone else will be trying to take over the world. Maybe another will only be trying to acquire the same land area they once had; or to control a complete continent. whatever.
is that consistent with diplo?

And capo, I really didn't mean to piss you off with the (ok I'm sorry) rather snide comments, but you know, you do have a tendency to come on here pretty hard sometimes telling us this and that is not "diplo"
and I did read the CapTV FAQ
and I do have a rather "biting" sense of humor :-)

maybe what we need is a manifesto :-)
I would find that interesting reading

so that means, come Thursday evening we're NOT playing?
and if we DO resume, someone please remember I would need the modpack cause I got no HOTW nothing on my computer now -- not even a save.

[Prometheus]

I have no problem playing till 2020 as far as I know all the techs will most likely be discovered at the end of 1700 so if you want to play on fine, I am up for whatever we do decide. However if we are going to continue to play we need to play because if we keep putting it off it will lose momentum; if we skip this week then we will have to wait until December to play again with Thanksgiving coming up. So I am asking OZ to find a sub for tomorrow because if we are going to play we need to continue the game as soon as possible we all know what happens when we put off the game for weeks.

Belinda I will E-Mail you the Mod.

[Prometheus]

Err no E-mail for Belinda, here is the Mod I use...

[belinda9]

no email for belinda? hmm I wonder howcome?
I thought it used to be there....
thanks, pro! you're a prince BTW, I think you the only one I didn't get back on my icq list, either so if you're around sometime, buzz me on it so I can "catch" you again

[deity]

Show respect son!

Originally posted by ozzy
Well the way I look at it Deity is correct, since we are changing the ending now that the game is almost over we need to get agreement of all players involved to do so. We can't force Deity to abide by our wishes that he finish the game our way. Of course he can't force anyone else from just dropping out of the game, saying the hell with all you guys, and wagging a finger at Deity for screwing everything up like Drake was going to do.

Both decisions are well within the range of options a person has, and we can't force anyone to not choose one of the above options. But both options don't respect the desires of the majority of players in the game so it is wise to persuade whoever is making one of these choices to rethink and choose a path that is more agreeable to all those involved without stepping on toes. When Drake was going to just quit and divy up the Zulu empire this is what we did, it was proved to him that this is a poor decision and would hurt the majority of player's enjoyment of the game. This is what i feel needs to be done with Deity, Prom and Drake now.

Also let me point out that option 1 cannot be accepted unless ALL the players agree to it as well. It is also a deviation from the previously accepted ending of option 2. Although if someone is truly intent on just ending their involvement in the game they can just drop out and we will continue without them.

So a quick summery of our options and situation. A majority of players favor an alternite ending. However they cannot force their wishes upon the other three but must make their case to convince the other players. Ending the game now has one vote I believe and also requires a consensus to be accepted. If there is a hung jury and gridlock then we are stuck with playing the game out (option 2) but with some restrictions to speed game play along.

1. Prom
2. Deity, Drake
3. Raz, Belinda, Ozzy, Capo

Since we are no closer to a solution than last week I suggest we not play this week again. I can't make it anyways. I can't make the following week either, and no doubt most of the Americans won't be able to either. So I suggest we take the next two weeks off to sort this all out.

he he

Now listen sonny, didn't anyone teach you to respect your elders?

And if I find the SOB who said I was an old man I'll turn his civ into a pulp!


The problem with that vote is that Option 3 is really a myriad of options that will take us all a year to agree on!

I'm happy to debate the ways diplo games should end based on the experiences of HOTW2 but you can't change the ground rules of HOTW2 itself at the end! It's basically cheating, regardless of majority views. There is an ethic of an even playing field that comes first.

Maybe we should all just save the last save as a scenario, make all players AI, switch off end of turn and just watch it play out!!!!

[OzzyKP]

So are people playing tonight or no?

[Rasputin]

Well i am here to play so if no one else turnsa up it wil lbe just me agaisnt 6 AI civs but HOTW2 will continue, please note my new ICqw number 138269538

[deity]

not a good day

I hope today is postponed.... have a few family issues today, including an unwell adult daughter.

I'll keep an eye on things here though but if cancelled will have to go out.

We should make sure that the other diplo game starts today so HOTW2 players can be rotational players or subs in it.

I definitely can't play in two weeks time and with Summer coming along my availability will become slightly more erratic so I'm happy to fill in OR rotate! Which I didn't like when Raz first suggested it but it would be interesting if I rotated with Capo for example in the other diplo. I would like to see if I could build up something (together) then see what he would do with it in the late game!

[Docker]

Rasputin can't post right now , he can read but not post, , so he sent me ICQ and asked me to post the following...

We shouldnt start new Diplo gmae till mod pack is agreed too. I would love to play as a Civ called "The Mad Monks" .

We need CapTVK to make a map for us, I dont think a world map is best I think a unknown one is better. Large size though plenty of room to develop nations.

Extra units like Frank suggests sound good but I am not an expert in unit changes so would go with deitys experience on that.

[Docker]

Raz still not able to post

Well no one turned up so the Mighty WAAR empire built Manhatans and launched full on Nuke war and wiped out Australia and China,

Just kidding guys, still waiting !!!

[drake]

This is a fork -----E

This is HOTW

This is a fork in HOTW:

------EHOTW

Any questions?

[The Capo]

Well, we should be realists...

I think that we should probably be realists, I tried and tried to convince everyone else otherwise. Before I continue though I don't think Deity's comments, or at least idea, that "changing" the ending is cheating. Because we aren't really changing anything, we are just agreeing on an ending, as a matter of fact when this game began we discussed how long it would take to end it and how it would end. We never actually admitted we would just be using Civ's ends to the game, and that's a cold hard fact, if you want proof just ask Chris.

So we wouldn't be changing anything about the game at all if we said we'll just end at x date or x variable or whatever. To FURTHER dismantle the cheating argument; we also established that a winner, per se, would NOT be declared in HOTW2. That's what we agreed upon, which also further helps the argument that we did not come into this game with the necessary need for a "Civ 2" ending.

But alas, I think Drake might be right and by virtue Prometheus. HOTW2 is dead, it can't survive this because the game's mentality is over now. All of these discussions are going to factor into what we do, or at least be an issue at some point. If that is the case, and it will be, we can't play the game the way it should be played. So in honor of our achievements in this game, and let's not forget them just because of this incident, we should probably solemnly put this thing to rest, decare Deity the winner of HOTW2 (even though it was against our initial "no winner" policy) and begin working on HOTW3. I think we deserve an HOTW3, I think it will be much better after this, we'll be prepared more and we'll have a better flow.

Now due to holidays I suggest a start date for HOTW3 at around January 15th to February 1st. I think that takes care of major holidays and gives us time to tweek the game to our liking and figure out how to fix a few things we didn't like and generally agree on our parameters.

So we should probably end this thread and start an HOTW3 one, with all interested parties (ie those who aren't disgusted with what happened in HOTW2) in tow so we can begin the third installment of OUR series.

See, I think the biggest test of HOTW2 is going to be whether or not it ruined HOTW3, so we'll find out soon enough.

Thanks a lot guys, it was an AMAZING game.

[GNGSpam]

Tsk Tsk Tsk

Hiya guys

Ill be brief and frank

From what ive gathered Deity is insurmontably in the lead right now. So just end it. Whats the purpose of going on if he is staring down the barrel of world conquest? Im sure the Alamo might appeal to all of you, but im getting the impression that it doesnt to Diety and a substantial portion.

Quite frankly you all dug this mess, and it doesnt suprise me it turned out this way. We had trouble keeping people in slots the whole game, but it was ok as long as the core stayed intact. Specifically Diety, Drake, myself, Capo, and Prometheus.

The game, in all honesty, began to fall apart with the withdrawl of the old Mongolian player, War, and introduction of Sun. Sun was never consistant and humstrung the game constantly. He was also incompetent which degraded the level of play. Follow this up with the general flakiness of Israel (name escapes) and we see the cracks.

Eventually it all fell apart. Capo became inconsistant, Sun had to be replaced, it seemed impossible to replace Israel, etc etc

So we called it quits.

At least thats what I was told.

Then you ressurected the game, convinently dismantled Mali since no one was playing, and presto!

Inconsistancy hamstrung the game.

But that didnt kill it.

Capo, Drake, Deity, and Prometheus should all remember when I played. Does anyone remember the power situation there?

Basically when I left the game was composed of two alliances. China, Mali, and Zulu v Israel, Mongolia, and Australia, with Capo as the ever wild Wild Card.

Did any of you ever stop to consider why I opposed Deity?

Im sure the impression percieved was that I was some manipulative mastermind intent on world domination.
I was, I make no qualms about it. But I wasnt the only one.

The reason Diety and I were so diametrically opposed wasnt that I somehow mystically represented the forces of evil and he the forces of goodness.

No, we were opposed because we had the same damn goal.

Of course you all see this now, all to late. But dont act like I didnt warn you. I repeated the mantra of "dont trust Deity, dont believe Deity" etc etc

None of you listened once I had left.

Quite frankly Drake, you deserve to be destroyed because you of all people were told the most of who to fear.



Now a quick word about the nature of diplogames. Do we still have the impression that war is wrong and has no place in a Diplogame? Oh sure sure, you say "just wars" are ok, but if no one ever committs an unjust war, how can there be a just war? What I mean is, if everyone waits for a plausable excuse for war, then there will be no war.

History is filled with wars of aggression. Civ2 was designed with this very much in mind. Take a look at the unit roster. 2 trade units, 2 settlers, and dozens upon dozens of combat units.

What helps happiness? Army units.

Why build Railroads? To move units faster.

What do you spend most of your shields on? Combat units.

Folks, Civ2 was very much designed with War in mind because Civ2 is a (admittly vague and general) representation of history.

Your supposed to recreate the rise of Civilization with all the struggles, and conflicts involved.

The concept of the diplogame, regardless of how others played it previously, was SPECIFICALLY agreed upon by all memebers of the original game. The concept was laid out as thus.

In the diplogame we are going to try and act like Historical leaders. This means roleplaying as the leader. This means making historical choices. This means not powerplaying, but rather attempting to act like nations.

Nations are aggressive. This does not preclude war, this in fact acknowledges it as a part of the game. Rulers throughout history have fought, and it was expected these countries in the game would fight.

Drake, you were part of this. So was Capo and Deity. Prometheus wasnt an original creator but he came in very soon after it started (unfourtantly not before the AI hamstrung his country)

You all knew what we intended. In fact most of us were excited by the prospect, to break out of the old diplogame mold of doing nothing but building stuff. How boring is that? Not strategy, just following the same repetative city builds, marketplace then temple then aqueduct then harbor blah blah blah

No we wanted a game with action, intrigue, conflict, negotiations.....diplomacy

So now, dont fault Diety for embodying what the game set out to do. I tried to do it myself, and I applaude Deity on his victory, though quite frankly id be disappointed if he hadnt wont.

End the sick game, let it die, kill the life support.

My unasked for two cents

[deity]

Err, Thanks I think!

Hi Chris

Yes, it would have been interesting to see how it would have turned out with you still in the game. Belinda did a fantastic job and added enormous depth (and war) to the game, mind you, but a game with the same original seven players would definitely be the best way to go.
And such a shame that *****, War4ever, screwed it all up

Capo, I'd like to be considered for HOTW3 but I'll accept whatever the final choice is. I regard that as your game. Your schedule suits me fine.