HOTW2 Continues 2nd November 2001

[belinda9]

ok I know from previous experience that you consider yourself to be God of Diplogaming, capo, but you seem to be THE ONLY PERSON IN THE WORLD with whatever this idea is of what diplogaming is that you're carrying around in your head, cause I ain't finding it anywhere else.

It may be a different style of conducting a civ game; BUT it IS still a CIV game; as deity says. Civ games are either spaceship or bloodlust..now, if you're not playing bloodlust, but no one builds a spaceship, then you have a third alternative, which is the "oops, time's up" ending, which would not necessarily Have a "clear winner".
Preferably, everyone in a game knows what the "rules" of the game are beforehand -- but as that has never been the case here before, why quibble over that now?

I'm amenable to discussion on continuing the game, but I don't want some "deux ex machina" bulls t pulled out at the last minute.

[OzzyKP]

Capo's arrogance may have clouded what he was trying to say.

The entire point of a diplogame is to play like real life and to make our own rules for the game, not just play the game as is out of the box. Even look in CapTVK's diploFAQ it i believe discusses alternate endings. There is absolutly no reason why the game HAS to only be decided by conquest or spaceship. It is likely that those are the ones chosen since everyone is most comfortable with them but no good diplogame should be hemmed in by these constraints. One problem though which I think Deity mentioned is the fact we are debating the ending now that we've reached it, these are issues you all should have discussed when you first started the game. I guess if you want to get technical Deity could have a case about changing the rules during the game which is a no-no unless everyone agrees.

Personally I would rather we had a different ending, a creative, diplogaming ending to truly show that this game is the tops. But I understand that Deity has been counting on conquest and/or spaceship for quite a freaking while or he wouldn't have built up all those troops (and the world complacently let him) so it would be very unfair to him if we just took a vote and changed the whole game on him.

Hopefully we can pick an ending that everyone can agree on, but it doesn't look like we are reaching a conclusion.

So i'm making myself diplogaming dictator and declaring we do the Independence Day ending. If you all don't like it you can stuff yourselves.

(ha ha, sorry, just had to do a Capo imitation there, but Independence Day ending )

[belinda9]

whatever

(rolling of eyes)

[Rasputin]

ok heres my 2c worth.

1. If we play unti lconquest, I dont beleive any one can beaqt Deity so game has already finished.

2. If we play till someone launches SS, Deity will either launch in which case we need to detroy his cpaital , hard but not impossible, but I bleeive in that case Deity will continue conques tto prevent anyone having power to take Capital, if some one else launches SS, deity has enough power to take his enemies capitals as shown already in South America, so Agian game is essentially finished Deity winner.

3. If we play on to some new "Diplo" ending, after al lthat is the game we playing, then anyone can win still.

4. It is not fair on Deity to change rules at end like this, so basically either 1 or 2 is in place, so Deity is winner.


So Deity but you havnet givne us any other options, turns are too slow (eve n30 minutes is long ) to conitnue palying to simply let you see the end screen, you are winner and the game is over.!!!!!!

[Prometheus]

Errr I second that… Rasputin basically said everything I wanted to….

Capo, I have no problem walking away from the game, in my mind it is done, if we are going to continue fine I will play on, never said I wouldn’t. Though it is funny if Belinda, Drake and myself dropped there would not be that much of a diplo game left. This is still Civ, if we were going to have a different ending than the game allows then we needed to specify that at the beginning of the game.

Now I don’t like AC or world conquest as the ending to a diplo game but since this issue was not discussed before those are the endings. But I don’t think it is fair to change it mid-game unless we all agree on an ending and since that has a fat chance in hell of happening I think we should just call the game here and write our own personal ends to how the world turned out.

Now this wont be the last Diplo game and in those future diplo games state at the beginning the ending conditions so this issue does not arise again.

I am putting forth a vote

1. End Game (consider Deity the winner by AC or World Conquest)
2. Continue until some one wins by one of the following AC or Conquest
3. Play with some alternative ending which we will decide later.

1 = Prometheus
2 =
3 =


Vote, decide, there is no as Oz so sarcastically says it “diplogameing dictator”. It is no ones game it is everyone’s and therefore I for one will abide by the group and will be happy to play on but I believe that this game has reached its finish, there is no shame in ending it now.

[Rasputin]

Rasputin votes 3 !!!

[The Capo]

Okay fine, think about it this way...

Oz made the point that we came into the game knowing, whether or not it was in the back of our heads, that AC and Conquest were the only ends to the game.

Alright, well I'm pretty DAMN sure the whole group knew this was a diplogame, and further I'm pretty DAMN sure that knowing that they didn't think we'd have a pure war game. Therefore what I'm saying is, if you apply logic you used to back up the idea that conquest is fine since it is a rule we should know about, then I'm suing your same logic and applying it to the fact that in a diplogame this is naked aggression and should not occur.

Think about it.

[belinda9]

why should naked aggression not occur?
now, I studied logic and stuff many long years ago, and your line of reasoning is faulty, capo.
but then, I've never seen all the high holy capo rules of diplogaming, either!
If you think diplomacy rules out naked aggression, you haven't been studying your American history, either! (or you've only had the sanitized tell-it-to-the-American-schoolkids-in-the-version-we-decide garbage they fed you in high school)

having said that, though, I didn't come into this game with any expectations at all -- so I have no problem saying we can have any kind of ending we want. I don't care. I can say an "deux ex machina" ending is lame (my opinion) but still go with the flow.
so I vote 3 -- preferably to a certain date or Future Tech I

either 1 or 2 and the game is over anyway, as far as I'm concerned, whether you waste anymore time on it or not. It would just be a question for jockeying for the #2 or #3 slot or the personal satisfaction of having accomplished some personal goal within the game.

so far then the vote counts at 1 for #1 and 2 for #3

[Rasputin]

Re: Okay fine, think about it this way...

Originally posted by The Capo
Oz made the point that we came into the game knowing, whether or not it was in the back of our heads, that AC and Conquest were the only ends to the game.

Alright, well I'm pretty DAMN sure the whole group knew this was a diplogame, and further I'm pretty DAMN sure that knowing that they didn't think we'd have a pure war game. Therefore what I'm saying is, if you apply logic you used to back up the idea that conquest is fine since it is a rule we should know about, then I'm suing your same logic and applying it to the fact that in a diplogame this is naked aggression and should not occur.

Think about it.

lets forget the debate and jsut vote ... !!!!

[OzzyKP]

1. Prom
2.
3. Raz, Belinda, Ozzy

[The Capo]

3

3

[deity]

Option 2

Option 3 is not an option unless ALL players agree.

We either continue or concede otherwise our integrity as players is very much questionable... think about it.

[drake]

2 is my first choice
1 is my second choice
3 is my last choice

[The Capo]

What?

I would like to know how exactly our integrity as players is at risk if we rectify this problem every Diplogame is going to have.

I may have caught a lot of slack for my choice of words lately but that doen't change a thing. The point is that neither AC nor Globa Conquest are fitting ends to a diplogame at all. If you want to play some Civ "Purist" card and tell us that the game was made to end one of these ways then that is your perogative. But right now four out of the total seven players want to amend the ending conditions, two want to play the "Old Fashioned" way and one just wants to give up.

Right now changing the ending is what we should do, further Deity the paragon of "voter rights" throughout the game has now found it convenient to say that votes don't matter.

And Belinda as far as your "Capo's Holy Diplogame" comment, the fact is I don't know what perfect diplogame is and probably never will. What the "HOTW Series" was started to do was attempt to find out by trial and error, but so far we've only managed to scratch the surface.

Peace guys.

[drake]

I honestly don't know what to think.

We have all been building in this game like a "normal" civ game. Not in anticipation of some fantastic ending. We can play the rest of the game that way, but as far as I see it, the symbolic year (2020) has passed and the game is pretty much over.

So now that the votes have been counted, what exactly is option 3?