HOTW2 Continues 2nd November 2001

[deity]

OOC

Just quickly, I'll post more later, but we must play on without drake. He's conceded as ONE player. We'll find a sub or run Zulus as AI as per EU.

ozzy's solution is good but a bit artificial. I offerred him peace in my last turn and I could have taken out many more cities but he came back and attacked!

I haven't spilt the character of the 'genre', I've added to it and capo and and all know it. This is a possibility in a diplo game.

Failed negotiations are a part of a 'diplo' game!!

WE play on, I'll be here at the normal time.

I'll discuss peace terms IF Saul regains power - I'll watch this threwad first - then maybe it becomes a SPACE RACE AND MAYBE OZZY CAN negotiate a deal as per above but in character and in gamme.....

[deity]

30 min timer!

I'll agree to a 30 minute timer.
This will disadvantage me and minimise conquests but keep the integrity of the spirit and evolving characterisation of the natural game.... so it doesn't get too artificial.
As some compensation I think nukes be banned. This advantages me but also advanatges those that do build Spaceships if someone goes after their capital.

[drake]

It's already artificial.....don't see how it can go from being artificial back to non-artificial.

If the game continues, I will show up for regular time on thursday to distribute all zulu holdings between allies. If only belinda is present, she'll get all the cities. If only Capo is present, he'll get all the cities. If they both are present, the holdings will be divided in half between the two.

I haven't spilt the character of the 'genre', I've added to it and capo and and all know it. This is a possibility in a diplo game.

<i>added</i> to it????

[deity]

Game is completely organic to this point...

Now, let's get this straight.

From memory, the recent spate of wars:

* Mali makes a PRE-EMPTIVE strike on WAAR after provocation

* WAAR, under ozzy leadership, decimates Mali in Africa AND takes their capital - how many cities in ONE turn was it? 10 or so?
So far this has all been OK?

* A few spats with the EU AI - Aussies would not have taken Bosporus IF Capo had showed up

* Aussies fear Zulu plans to attack

* China fears UAS (ozzy) plans to attack

* UAS attacks EU AI(?)

* Zulus take UAS city of Cusco

* Aussies make PRE-EMPTIVE strike and take 13 cities in South Am

* UAS (ozzy) attacks China

* China responds - MANY cities involved in conquest here on both sides

* Aussies support China - take 5 UAS cities; then lose three back to UAS and so on....

Now, how the hell am I the bad guy here???

ozzy made the biggest first blow I've ever heard of in a diplo game! Dame de Notre was inspired by this!

The stories and characterisation behind these wars is totally valid for ALL players.

Come on!

WE have all enriched the diplo genre and ozzy led the charge.

I'm really annoyed with this persistent theme from ozzy and drake that says my move was the one that spoilt the diplo genre. Get real... I'll set up a poll at CivFanatics...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7783

[belinda9]

ok so you guys have me totally confused
But maybe i really didn't undersatnd all the sacred holy rules of diplogaming to begin with :-)
so there's war -- that makes it NOT diplogame? c'mon there's ALWAYS war, and diplomacy doesn't always prevent, or end wars.
if the game has broken down I wouldn't say it was because Australia finally decided to start throwing his weight around he spent the last 500 years building up: though it IS rather depressing. I'd say more it was the continued presence of AI, who cannot be negotiated with in the normal fashion.
I'll be the first to admit I am not the greatest at posting every week or staying in any kind of character in the chat and stuff, but at least I was there. And if I couldn't give my civ away after taking the worst beating of anyone in the game, I don't see how the same person who wouldn't take my civ now can suddenly up and give his away. So what's the breakdown, diplo-wise? Because there's war everywhere? Hasn't the end of the world historically been perceived as coming about in that fashion anyway?
I mean, if you don't want to play anymore, that's one thing -- personally I can think of any number of other things to do on a Thursday night than sit around for three hours so I can get one 10-minute turn.
And deity has a point: to MY mind, the biggest no-no in diplo-gaming is to take a guy's capital city, for crying out loud: I believe capo and I both shared that fate at one time or another.
So:
capo's going to continue to be a noshow despite his best intentions, drake doesn't want to play anymore because he's all frustrated and Aussies are kicking everyone's ass around anyhow and taking forever to do it, to boot, so
what's the point? Just because you've spent 9 months on a game doesn't mean you have to beat a dead horse.
write up the epitaph and let it go

[Rasputin]

just a few points :

1. I have never seen an diplo rules stating no capital taking, nearly all real world wars involve attacks on capital, doesnt mean end of the nation as it hasnt in this game.

2. Also I havent seen any diplo rules prohibiting wars.

3. You all seem to think SS is a fair way to finish game. I dont, I hate it, it is the msot unreal way of finishing a game. If any one launched a SS I would be hoping all other nations would join in a war to get their capital.

4. As for Deitys wars and him comparing them to WAAR wars. So far every time we have conquered any citys, at conclusion of war we have negotiatied a settlement that has always seen a return of most citys. Deity so far has offered none back to Drake.

5. Drake has consistently called Deitys attacks out of Diplo style, I cant see why, if my nation was threatened by a world coalition I too would launch a full on attack agsint the two strongest partners of that coalition. DRake had not made much of a secret he Capo and Ozzy were planning a war on Australia, simply to stop Deity winning, not for Diplo reasons.!!!! Becuase none of them could give me a DIPLO reason for the attack I never joined them and simply informed Deity of the plans via Diplo style Character memos.

6. I hope Belinda continues to play as I will continue to show Fridays.

7. I also hope you didnt play with my nation as AI this week as I had to leave after 2.5 hrs of play and hadnt even finsihed Deitys turn yet. It is not fair to expect me after a night shif tto sit through tha tlong and then after informing all I had to go to play on ( I not sure what happened a s no one has posted the Save game yet)

8. Finally, unfortunaly I cant play this Friday as I working. If you dont allow me a week off or get a Real Sub, I wont be back. My civ has been through 25 years of Unrest due to you playing through with my subs dropping out the previous week and if this week you palyed with AI and next week, the WAAR will be as good as dead. So I cal lfor a week break to allow not only me to return , but all to rethink the actions taken recently and hopefully get all players back

[drake]

ozzy made the biggest first blow I've ever heard of in a diplo game! Dame de Notre was inspired by this!

The stories and characterisation behind these wars is totally valid for ALL players.

Come on!

WE have all enriched the diplo genre and ozzy led the charge.

I'm really annoyed with this persistent theme from ozzy and drake that says my move was the one that spoilt the diplo genre. Get real... I'll set up a poll at CivFanatics...

I stated many times I think Ozzys move was a low blow and that it went too far as far as a diplo game is concerned....But it atleast had a valid in game reason, Mali attacked Israel first.

Aussies were not seriously threatened by any invasion from zulus, as they could see for themselves in their invasion. There was nothing in SA to attack with period! Sure we talked with others about possibly getting a coalition together to attack an ss if it came up in either China or Australia, but seeing how this never happened, there was not going to be an attack!

I honestly think that deity took ooc experiences and used them as a basis to take me out. He knows I had success in the monday dip game at taking out a much larger and better equipped nation, and I really felt that he feared the same fate. He offers to make peace with Mongolia after taking a few cities even though it is mongolia who attacked their ally, China for no reason and pose a much bigger threat than the zulus ever did. All the while, talks of destroying the African continent continue. No negotiation. No peace. Just a continued vendetta that obviously had no basis to start with!

Yeah, this "raised the bar" for future diplo games. If you're the biggest nation you should kill the smaller nations and destroy their chances asap.

Under this mentality, China and Israel would have been destroyed right off the bat. That would have made for a great diplo experience right? It would have "enriched" it?

Hell no. This turns diplo into war games. I don't think I'd ever play another game peacefully if we're using these "enriched" rules. I think I would destory everyone as fast as possible. Whats the point of playing peacefully if it isn't taken into account?

If smaller nations don't give up and "know their place" they get destroyed? Thats a diplo game huh? Err...ok

And about your poll? Who cares what people who don't play these games think? The people and this game and a selected few others ARE the diplo genre. Just ask them!

[Rasputin]

ooc

as i said to drake in a PM I do beleive Deity went too far in his attacks on Drake, and yes i think drake is right, Deity feared Drakes ability to win.

I know I played aggressive all game (not my usual form but I think it had to be done) but I always contrived an in game reason for war and usually negotiated by turns end a return of most citys (had to have some spoils of victory) I didnt do Ozzys smash and grab into africa. My biggest attack in one turn was 6 citys in Europe which all were given back. But i used those wars to get what I wanted , more land and more citys especially in the USA. and in the end it was a negotiated trade.

I not sure how other diplo games end or if they do end. I thought the main feature of playing diplo was the role playing in the threads here. obviously drake beleives that no one should be taken out of game and SS is only victory. I personally hate SS and dont beleive it indicates who is winner.


Well thats my 2c worth

[deity]

drake and Raz, I made an in-game strategic decision to build up armies.
Zulus threatened SS destruction, so why would I go ahead with SS and wait for another civ to knock me down?

Raz, you can't have a world domination ending IF you can't capture and KEEP cities in the end game. I gave away lots of cities DURING the game.

All my decisions were based on the fact that we were at the end of the tech tree and nearing the end game. Be fair.

And the poll is for those that have been involved in and around the game.

[belinda9]

Raz, afraid we did go thru your turn AI
Maybe it's not fair to you, but not fair to ME either to sit there all night and not even GET a turn because you can't stay awake long enough.
I don't have a prob with taking a week off: matter of fact, I've got a meeting I have to be at til about 8 CST anyhow, so I be late anyhow. Guess I'll see who's where doing what then
And when they all hollered at Oz to save, I saved: here's what I got

[drake]

I'm done squabbling......

I just fear for future diplo games. Really, what is the point of being peaceful and trying to do the right thing? I imagine everyone will be much more aggressive and ruthless in hotw3 if and when it happens.

I'm not saying it won't be a good game, as I'm sure it will, but whether its going to be a diplo gmae I'm not sure.

Don't get me wrong, a war game is good fun, but not when the war game is being played under false pretenses (or a diplo game).

Bottom line: Perhaps Deity didn't go outside any boxes in the communities opinion, it just went outside the box of what I myself had thought a diplo game was. I've been playing them since last year on a regular basis and this whole time I thought I knew what the term "diplo game" meant......Perhaps I just need to re-adjust my thinking.

Anyway, let me know whether to show Thursday.

[OzzyKP]

i have been really busy, and I will continue to be really busy the next two weeks, I deffinatly support taking a week off. I'll have to get a sub the following week.

Problem is we never decided on what the ending would be or could be. It seems many people have different ideas about what the end of the game is and should look like. Not everyone agrees on that and problems stem from that. Civ3 will fortunatly provide more options for winning the game, we'll have to decide which are good and which aren't and work that out prior to the beginning of the game.

I'll post more of my thoughts later, perhaps tommarrow.

[drake]

After talking to several people and listening to a few non-biased opinions, I think I will come back and finish this thing. I still feel very strongly about this turning into something that it never should have been (IMO only), but it is still a decent game.

What first needs to be done however is determining what will indeed end this game. When will it be over? We need to either turn this into a conquest game and choose sides or make it an ac game and choose sides. The ambiguity about what the end game condition is needs to end. No more speculation. Lets get this crap in the open.

After we figure out how the game has to end, we will stick to it. If we want to turn this into a winner takes all conquest game, thats fine, we just need to lay it out on the table. Not just spring it

I may have whined like a b1tch about all this "was it ok, wasnt it ok" stuff, but I have been at this game for every session, and goddam it, as much as I would like to sever ties to this game I can't. I must see it through. I've never been a quitter.

I think we need to hold us all to that 1/2 hour time limit because it will force deity to move his slow ass a bit faster. Sitting around for 4 hours to play a 10 minute turn is very close to being un-bearable, it really is. This isn't anyones fault, even the old mans. No ones to blame. The games design is at fault for being such a lousy late game.

The main idea is that this stays atleast semi-fun, and if its all wait, no move, it is only fun for the ones doing the moving. If all one comes to the session for is to move a few units and press enter, they are not going to have a good time (winning or losing).

Anyway, I still think Deity is the clear winner and he has earned the right to be called winner.....unless an act of god strikes him, he will not be un-seated.....not a chance....his defenses are excellent and he's not risky in his military manuevers. Plus, he makes tons of money a round and has a military bigger than 3 or 4 nations combined.

If we all try to play this game like it should, I'd say we got atleast another 2-3 months. Are we all willing to wait this long?

I am such a sucker..........I just do not have the ability to leave things, even when I should........

[Rasputin]

well as i said i cant make it this week so i hope you vote for a break, if not i outta here and you can find a perm sub for WAAR.. i know why you lplayed on last weeek, but i dont think it fair, i too waited for 4 hours t oplay but didnt get a turn, i not happy !!

[The Capo]

Some Capo diplo-wisdom...

Alright, a lot of crap has gone down and I make no mistake that it is my fault, at least a great deal my fault.

So what I intend on doing is coming in here like some fake-ass deity (not our Aussie friend, but a holistic figure) and laying down the law to the HOTW2 crew... feel free to ignore me.

The problem we are running into is keeping this game diplomatic in the face of a one-sided victory condition. You either hit AC or conquer the planet, the way both would turn out would be very undiplomatic. Everyone is going to fight anyone that tries to get to AC and global conquest is about as diplomatic as a football game. So our main issue is keeping the game a diplogame, while at the same time not putting in rules rules rules like the past diplogame.

Basically HOTW2 has to change the whole situation for the better, otherwise it will f*ck itself up and everyone will tell us that they told us so. So what's a Capo to do?

How about this lady and gentlemen; we play to 2000 ad. That's it, AC or no AC we play until 2000 ad. No need for conquest, the person who makes it to AC isn't even the winner. At the end of the game we'll just determine who won the game based on whatever the hell you want to base it on, we just get together an agree on the mofo who took this bad b*tch home. Right now I'd say Deity but that is neither here nor there.

This way we won't have pointless invasions for the purpose of victory, this way we won't have centuries of war over who's going to space, and this way diplomacy (since we basically elect the winner) will be a major point. You guys think that covers it?

Cuz I do.

As far as when we continue this game I say this; Ozzy won't be around for the next two weeks because he will be busy or whatever. Raz says he can't make this week even if we have a session, and I'm not sure what everyone else's issues are. Also one of the sessions falls on the American holidy of Thanksgiving, which is most likely going to put five of our yankee players on the disabled list for that week. We can either wait until after Thanksgiving before we continue the game, or try for some supplemental playtimes (such as like Tuesday or Wednesdays for instance) between now and that time or maybe some other solution, I don't know. The point is we're going to have problems getting everyone together for the next month.

Then we have the issue of a four hour session with no turns for some of our players. I think we should put in a timer, 15 to 30 minutes should cover it. If you can't move your hordes within that time frame I say tough sh*t. I've been in games with this kind of speed before so I know what its like, not to mention sitting there for four hours watching your cities being mauled and not being able to do anything about it at all is not my idea of fun, and this is a game therefore it should be fun. So I'd like some feedback on that as well.

Alright well, hopefully that gave some sort of perspective to where we are and what we gotta do. The reason I haven't been posting anything for like a week and a half is because the goddam Civ3 goons keep clogging up the forums whenever I get some free time... those morons.

Anyway let's put HOTW2 in its place; the greatest diplogame ever will be just that.

Peace.

And Drake, I am pretty sure HOTW3 is going to be just fine.