HOTW2 Continues 2nd November 2001

[Prometheus]

Originally posted by belinda9
capo's going to continue to be a noshow despite his best intentions, drake doesn't want to play anymore because he's all frustrated and Aussies are kicking everyone's ass around anyhow and taking forever to do it, to boot, so
what's the point? Just because you've spent 9 months on a game doesn't mean you have to beat a dead horse.
write up the epitaph and let it go

While I by no means believe that this is the end of Diplo gaming I do believe this is the end of this game, as Belinda said there is no point in beating a dead horse. I will show up as always but I believe that this game has been great while it lasted and is a testament in its self to Diplo games (for all those who care about its legacy and all.). But I think it would be best to call it quits.

While Capo’s idea of playing to 2000 has merit, perhaps in another game it could be implemented, but AC is to deeply implement in the psyche of the game (Zulu foreign policy as well as Aussie) to change what has been perceived as end game conditions.

So I say we each write an ending, doesn’t have to make since to each other’s ending but just a history of future events.


VOTE SO FAR

END GAME: Drake, Belinda (I think, if not just change it), Prometheus.

CONTINUE: Deity, Rasputin, and Oz

Capo also wants to continue but (no offence Capo) he hasn’t been here in a few weeks so I am not counting him, as in my eyes he has not been there to play the game (though superb posting).

So what we have here lady and gentlemen is a tie, but I think it also says something that half of the active members of the game are ready to call it quits.

Since a good portion of the people wont be there on Thrus/Fri I assume we will take a break at least, if not I will be there anyway if anyone wants to play a quick game just for the sake of it.

[deity]

Well, whatever, I've discounted playing this week... I'm working late this week. And no way can Raz miss out.. so let's keep discussing this.

The problem is that the more we state the victory conditions the more artificial it becomes. Drake wants a neat bundle but the point is a proper game should be full of unknowns and surprises.

We are spilling too many beans now which is spoiling the story

I said OK to 30 min timer but this has uneven effect on everyone due to lag. ozzy very much benefited by this but that's OK. I can handle that!

[drake]

You act like finding out this is a conquest game, rather than a diplo game is a nice surprise deity

No way can we go for the 2000 ad end. Thats a good oh......probably close to 200 turns away, and at the pace we've been going we're due to finish, in oh....about 4 years

Deity, though while I appreciate your desire to keep the game "natural" we have to have guidelines to play the game by and rules....and yes, at this point, goals. If guidelines aren't established, we're talking about a never ending story.

[The Capo]

Guys c'mon...

First I'd like to say that while I understand Prometheus' statement, I do take offense. I've been the only one to really suggest a compramise here while everyone else just bickers about what is not going to work, that's fine say its not going to work and explain why like Drake did.

Since the sentiment seems to be that I am a non-factor I'll prove you guys wrong by showing up to play when we decide to continue.

If playing to 2000 ad seems too long then we can change the date to like 1800 or something like that. Working with AC and Conquest as our only options is foolhardy if we want to keep the essence of this game intact, that's my main point.

While I haven't spoken to Raz about it he seems to agree with me that AC is not a proper ending, and that Conquest is very undiplomatic if not unrealistic. Drake hasn't said it in so many words be he also seems to have problems with these endings as well.

Nobody else has really emoted their side, Deity has been very vague and indifferent but if I was in his position I suppose I'd do the same thing. Instead of saying "HOTW3 is ruined now because of what HOTW2 established" we should do what we did with HOTW1 and apply its lesson to the next game. In HOTW1 we had issues with the players and rules, that is why HOTW2's rules were very specific and simple. Now with HOTW2 we are having issues with the ending of the game and what a diplogame is, well this is what this game was started to do; establish the diplogame.

We have to use what's going on now as a precursor to the next game, so in effect we have to finish this game out to figure out what needs to be done next time around. If you guys don't want to do that we're going to be hard-pressed to fix HOTW3. If we are going to bicker about things like this until no end then we might as well start working on HOTW3 because this game is already dead.

So we can either keep this thing alive and do what we gotta do, or we can stop this pointless bickering that is getting us nowhere and start work on HOTW3. That's what I see here, that's our problem here.

Also on the same note, if you want to end the game you should just leave. Don't sit here and drag the game down if you don't even want to play it, then to disinclude me because I wasn't around for a month in the voting is retarded as well Prometheus. If you are going to disinclude me then just come out and say that I am out of the game, not just out of the vote.

There's no reason to continue the game if you don't want to, Prometheus, Belinda and Drake if that's what you really want to do then its not very hard to walk away. As for the rest of us I think we should finish this bad boy because it deserves to be finished, we deserve to see it finished, and no matter what happens it should finish.

Most of these arguments are self defeating, so we might as well stop and suck it up. Nothing is perfect and diplogames sure the hell aren't an exception to that rule. So whatever, I say we let the chips fall where they may and see what happens. HOTW2 will always be known as the great diplomatic expirament, let's not cry just because we don't like the results.

Peace.

[belinda9]

Whew. You don't know how glad I am to be here!
First of all, this is my present situation: a couple of days ago, my hard drive fried on me. Major catastrophe!! (For one thing, I had about 3 weeks of uninvoiced work I had yet to deliver on the thing!)
Luckily, my wonderful tech guy managed to retrieve some stuff off of it (mainly my aforementioned work) but I am still basically starting over with a blank hard drive; which means I am still replacing programs, etc. Just got reconnected online today. This also means I have yet to reinstall civ and even when I do I won't have the modpack so if we gonna play on, I will need that.

1.) OK I'm stupid: what the hell is AC abbreviated of? thank you
2.) I don't care. Whatever you all decide the end conditions are is fine with me. I'll war or not or maybe just be the damn wild card so none of you guys will know just what that crazy Mali woman is going to do. works for me If y'all just want to play on until endtime, that's ok, and I'll still show up (when I get back up, that is) I definitely vote for some kinda timer, though!
3.) Some time off is good: at least a week so I can get my hardware/software problems resolved, have a chance to catch up on the work I'm not getting done and get the modpack back, etc.
Today is Wed. and I am definitely not going to be up to speed until the weekend at least because new hard drive install is scheduled for Fri. and I'm on a temporary (small) backup now and don't want to put more stuff on it than I have to if I'm just going to be moving it over in a couple of days (especially since this guy charges me by the hour!)

I have no problem with continuing the game if/when we skip this week. If we go on, I will promise to try harder on the rp aspect, ok? And capo is welcome back anytime if he's gonna be there. If he's AI I'm still after his AI cities. If he comes back, we can negotiate like rulers
If y'all don't hear from me for a few days you'll know why.

[drake]

Hey b, good to see you're back online. We missed you last night in the gaia crew

Uh, anyway, AC stands for "Alpha Centauri" (spaceship ending).

[OzzyKP]

Drake is right there is absolutly no way we can keep going till 2000, that will take forever.

Though it does present a third ending option. So far we have:

1. Play until a mutually agreed upon date (before 2000 I hope!)
2. Play until AC (Alpha Centuri)
3. Play until all the players have been eliminated except one. (conquest)

Other possibilities:

4. Play until a player or alliance accumulates a set amount of cash. (100,000 or so)
5. Play until a player or alliance can hold all wonders of the world for a set amount of time.
6. Equate the United Nations with world peace and after it is built we all start singing kumbya and walk off into the sunset holding hands as brothers.
7. Build UN and negotiate a peace deal to placate all the warmongers and then if total peace can be maintained peace for a set amount of turns we go to option 6.
8. The first nation to take Deities' cap is winner, or if Deity can hold onto his cap for X amount of turns he wins.
9. Play till year X and then determine winner based on how they treated their nation's environment, minus major points for polution and minus minor points for irrigation and terrain change.
10. Capo can tweak the game so that Aliens land in the form of hyper-powerful barbarians and the world has to band together to meet some scenario condition to free earth from the Aliens.
11. Game ends upon Global Warming.
12. All nations join together in "Hands Across The Globe" demonstration and all nations line up land and naval units which forms a continuous chain around the world.
13. Continue till Future tech X.
14. Continue till living standards of all humans up to par. (i.e. all cities must have certain buildings built)
15. Metalhead empire evolves from the smoking husk of the UAS and takes over the world with their killer riffs and head-banging.


I dunno, there are many possibilities, i'm sure we could all do some brain storming and find some ending that we agree upon which doesn't necessarily have to be the one that the game picked for us. This is a Diplogame, we create the game ourselves, so why not make up a suitable ending? It can be anything, our imagination is our boundries (and our ability to persuade the other people in the game).

It seems no one is happy with the standard endings of world conquest and space ship so think up something else. I put up a list of possibilities pick and debate things from my list or make your own lists to give us more options. The possibilites are endless.

Personally I like the Alien ending, has anyone played the Alien scenario? We could do it like that, but make it harder. It is plausible, think of the movie Independence Day. And we don't HAVE to band together, perhaps if Deity thinks he'd be better able to save the world by conquering everyone he could try that. Or perhaps building the space ship could be tweaked to give us some special edge on the Aliens. There is a lot we can do with this ending, I like it. Maybe we could bring this to the Civ2 Creation forum and see what they can come up with. They might be very interested in this. Anyways, thats my opinion.

[belinda9]

How's that for suggested compromise, capo?
some good ones there, Oz, though personally I didn't much care for the alien thing (sorry)

Do we really have to have a goal? (Thanks for the AC explanation, BTW-- I knew I would feel stupid, and I thought that's what it might be, but wanted to be clear) The only reason I ever liked the AC goal was because it was always the only alternative to bloodlust, which I find distasteful (shut up Oz! LOL)

We could just all try to achieve our own little secret agendas by the Year X and then see where we are. I like the tree-hugger option, too, BTW -- or even some combo of #9, 14 and 6? Despite who builds UN we could always make it where to achieve "member status" you had to meet certain standards agreed upon by the World (yeah, THAT would be a trick! ) and your final standing could be influenced by your standing in the UN (how everyone else "feels" about you as a people;and after all, world influence should be worth something, eh?), your treatment of the environment and whatever factors we want to throw in there besides the usual.
It really doesn't even have to be all that really cut and dried: I don't really care all that much about what "ranking" the Mali come away with -- but then, I understand the Mali were not really ever "mine" as much as the (e.g.)Aussies/deity or the Zulus/Drake anyway. More important to me is how I remember the game when it's done.
After all, I would think actually finishing the thing would have to affect how your final feelings were regarding the game. And consider this-- what's REALLY the goal when all is said and done? After all that time and effort put into a game, it's how you want to feel when you see/hear of/remember HOTW

and how is that?

Like capo with HOTW?--(he always speaks of that one with rancor, doesn't he? )
As a waste of time? -- and lots and lots time for some !
As a game that was really great for awhile but petered out?

Or as a game that was more or less "won" by more one than person on more than one level? Because you could still come up with enough levels to have almost anyone succeed at least one or two of them :who had the highest, most sustained spike? (i.e., brought their civ from almost nothing to pretty much of something--Raz has an arguable claim on that, but capo could still make a run at it! ) who was the most efficient by Year X? Biggest might not rate as high there as some. Zulus always real high where world opinion counted: isn't that the main thing that scared Australia into a "preemptive strike"? But there's still plenty of time to exercise world influence, too; especially if you have to "be admitted" to UN somehow.
You see what I mean? Even if we just say, To heck with it, we'll all just meet back on X date and swear to finish the game by X date -- there's still enough left to warrant some really good postgame evaluations like that and leave everyone involved with a good taste in their mouth as they walk away.
Don'tcha think?

[OzzyKP]

Scooby-Doo Ending

Doodily-do-doodily-do Doodily-do-doodily-do

Drake -"Wow, we beat Deity, well that wraps it up, but there's one last thing. Lets just see who you really are Mr."

*Drake removes Deity's mask*

Drake - "Why its old man Withers, the guy who runs the haunted amusement park!"

Deity - "And I would have gotten away with it too if it hadn't been for you snooping kids!"

[drake]

One vote for scooby doo ending

[The Capo]

We don't need the alien ending because...

I thought I'd be really cute and put an event in the game in which humans come from the future to conquer us before we set off a nuclear holocaust that destroys their future and forces them to live underground (please note the unused yet accounted for units in the scenrio)...

No that was a joke, but it could be cooler than aliens.

Lemme read all this crap and make an actual post... BRB...

[Rasputin]

oki how bout we pick a Year X to end in and then conduct a vote of all HOTW2 palyers (not just the 7 current ones but all subs too ) and hav ethem vote for the winner based not on the usual concepts of size or strenght as shown on PG or Civ Score, but a simple vote for who we the players beleived played (and even posted) the best based on a diplo style... The players can vote based on any thing they want but hopefully they will take into account things like Role Play, Diplo Style , posts, Achiements in the game, Diplomacy, Negotiaitng, etc etc....

[deity]

Re: Scooby-Doo Ending

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Doodily-do-doodily-do Doodily-do-doodily-do

Drake -"Wow, we beat Deity, well that wraps it up, but there's one last thing. Lets just see who you really are Mr."

*Drake removes Deity's mask*

Drake - "Why its old man Withers, the guy who runs the haunted amusement park!"

Deity - "And I would have gotten away with it too if it hadn't been for you snooping kids!"

LMAO!

Hey, I don't look too old do I????

[deity]

Crazy talk!

I think we are going right off the rails here!!

Civ has a process that we all know and love.

We heightened that process to enjoy an unfolding story that highlighted diplomacy, relationships and characters.

Civ is designed to end in one of two ways. This is the expectation from the outset. Why the surprise?

1) Either someone was going to get a spaceship or two going and win; or lose their capital!

2) OR someone might rule the world

You can't change this basic game play.

But of course we enrich with much depth along the way.

In the end you need the KISS principle - the WAY the game is designed is the bottom line.

We can only continue as we were. It's the only, way but the time turns are taking I recognise is a problem, so I suggested the timer compromise - 30 minutes.

That's all we can do. You can't just change things when it doesn't all work out!

We are playing a game called Civ2MP that is designed to be played as..... Civ2MP, and that is the playing field!

GOD, I CAN'T IMAGINE HOW THE GAME WOULD EVER END IF WE ALL DEBATED VARIOUS WAYS OF ENDING IT... LMAO!!!

he he

[The Capo]

I disagree with Deity...

We did not play HOTW2 to enhance the flow of the Civ2 game at all, we played HOTW2 to develop the very new and untested concept of the "diplogame."

There's a huge difference, and while someone with your skills in a plethora of settings may not be able to fully comprehend this, a straight up hardcore Diplo-till-I-die guy like me fully understands. Conquest and AC are both not acceptable endings to a diplogame, the very fact that diplogames have ended under these parameters really disgusts me (at least as much you can be disgusted about a friggin computer game).

So I guess what I'm saying is we should think of a good ending, although I am down for whatever.

Peace.