HOTW2 Continues 2nd November 2001

[belinda9]

so much for being brief!! LOL

OK so HOTW is history.
We could have drug it on a little furthur but for what?

and OK I wasn't there early on before it was "screwed up" but I don't have a unpleasant feeling about the game as a whole. I would rather have been in the sub pool than to have been thrown into the Mali, but I learned a few things
And I had a good time, which to my mind is the most important reason to play!

So I'll just see what happens with the Monday night Tales of Gaia and throw my name out for the sub pool of HOTW3

bet they gun for you from the get-go this time, deity. LOL

[GNGSpam]

I too am also back for HOTW3.

But we arent starting it immediatly, because we desperatly need to streamline the way we play. Similiar kinks cannot be repeated you know?

And no, Deity wont win this time

[deity]

Originally posted by GNGSpam
I too am also back for HOTW3.

But we arent starting it immediatly, because we desperatly need to streamline the way we play. Similiar kinks cannot be repeated you know?

And no, Deity wont win this time

he he

You think not?

Maybe with player collusion; but players like drake and capo would never consider such a strategy

Anyway, Capo and all, I think HOTW2 was a brilliant, broke new ground and sorted out a few things. Sorry to use the 'c' word - not really appropriate here. You are a fine group of players and I hope to keep playing you all! Without sounding too big-headed I'm happy to take the poorest start if I'm selected in HOTW3....

[GNGSpam]

Start means nothing in a diplogame, something which I think we proved (Mali had worst start in the game, Prometheus had the AI ruin his start, and Ras was hunkered in without the ability to colonize)

The main beauty of HOTW2 as I saw it was that we established a real world community, where the goings on in one side affected others. Classic example was the first war between Deity and Capo. I threatened to go to war on Capos side, and consquentially attack and threaten to take over NA from China. Deity not wishing to see me take over NA cuts a deal with me, and China joins my alliance with Drake. It was a game breaking event. It involved the whole world. It involved diplomacy of the highest order.

Thats what HOTW2 was about.

[The Capo]

HOTW2 Thoughts...

Yeah, and also Chris it wound up forcing the VERY principle-based Adriatic League to fight a war by itself based on almost nothing other than pride. Which also wound up being what HOTW was "about." But alas...

There's a lot you can say about this game, most of its really good too. There's hardly much I find that I really despise about the game itself, I'm very proud of it. At first I felt a really personal ownership of it, but as I played with the few of you I've never played before that all dissapeared. And Deity HOTW3 is not the Capo's diplogame, it is OUR diplogame, it is Apolyton's diplogame and that's just what its going to be. There are no Diplomatic Dictators here.

I guess what I can do is just go down the list of all the players and tell everyone what I really think (BTW to the newer players us original guys said we would type up little memoir type post when it was over):

Deity - I started here because for all intents and purposes he was the AL/EU's arch nemises. I had and still have tremendous respect for Deity, he was very astute without going out of his way to be which is worth something. People like effortlessness. But Deity, I knew all along you put into place long term goals for yourself and went after that from the start, I knew your plans the entire time. I mean anyone who was playing in this game knew that no matter what happened in the world Europe was not friendly with Australia, well this is why. You newer people would find it hard to believe that people knew Australia would do what it did late in the game, but no, the originals new from day one what the Aussie posse was up to. I am personally surprised Drake took it the way he did... dammit Drake! I told you for years and years before those soldiers of his even set foot to defend defend defend, and what'd you do? Trade, build, trade, build. Well its the only way to learn. But don't get me wrong, Deity has played me like a pawn before, he finally admitted it like almost 2500 years later but he did play me like a pawn, well him and Chris those bastards! Back in the day when we began colonizing the New World an Australian ship was passing through the Mediterranean, which was a violation on the part of one of the FAWT treaty members (AL, Mali and Israel). It was perfectly likely that the ship came through the Suez, and accoring to Chris, the Australians had asked the Mali to keep silent so as not to arouse the suspicions of the Adriatic Legue (EU). Eventually we find out about the ship and a "Joint Navy" attacks the ship (it was created in Greece but given to Mali) to prove FAWT solidarity. That wound up leading to the first World War, my loss of "leader of the Western movement" to Chris, my loss of my ally Israel who turned on me at the worst moment and would fight nearly ten wars with me afterwards, two huge alliances with me as a wild card in the middle, and a teaty that would give away almost half of my New World posessions and give me a versailles-like treaty that I never really recovered from. So Chris sinks the Aussie ship, walks away with more power, I didn't sink the ship and I get my ass kicked. Chris that's showin em FAWT solidarity. One last point Deity admitted just a month ago that the ship did have a settler as Mali-AL intelligence believed, Deity also admitted the ship was heading towards Corsica to build a city. At least I got it before it became worse. So that's what Deity did...

Drake - Now Drake was very interesting during this game. During the begining he was sickeningly isolationist. I didn't like this because I felt he was sticking to the "Old Diplogame" mold, truth be told I think only Chris (GNGSpam) has the same ideas as I do as to what a diplogame should be. Anyway Drake was very isolationist but once contraversey over New World land claims (made by Australia and his allies) Drake promised to finance the Adriatic colonies. Drake's finances managed to get me Mexico central America, Cuba, the Bahamas, the southern United States and Hawaii. It was pretty impressive, the only thing Drake recieved in return was Greenland. It wasn't really until the Axis alliance (Mali, Zulus, Chinese) broke apart that the Zulus and I became allies. Ever since then he was constantly on my defense as I kept no showing and Israel kept attacking. I feel the worst towards my absences with Drake than anyone else, because I'd swear up and down to him that I'd show. That's the thing, for all his b*tching, for all his whining (he was the glue that held the game together) he was really dedicated to this game and for that he must be applauded. Our website, which was an amazing innovation and I think should still get another run in HOTW3, was gorgeous during the first few months of the game. The charts and diagrams were amazing and easy to follow also. He was always there for games, never missed a damn one (just like Deity) and played his heart out. Its a shame that he may not be around for HOTW3, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles. But yeah Drake was definitely headed towards a clash with Australia, just like Europe was. But the again neiter of us idiots were as directly pointed at Australia as...

Chris - Jesus, I don't even know where to begin. The guy is a diplomatic phenom, no ifs ands or buts about it. He's like friggin Klamens Von Metternich reincarnated into some American guy. Its that freakin sick watching the man work, but at the same time its so entertaining and at the same time awe inspiring. This guy managed to convince us that Mali was THE dominant power, and not to rain on his parade but I'm sure that had more to do with his political position than any type of concrete power. But that's all well and good, as a matter of fact its perfect in this type of game. He and Deity also went a long way to prove that a generally desert based nation can be the most powerful in their amazing diplo-Deul between the Axis Powers and the Pacific Pact. Yeah, Chris told me a lot of things, and taught me a lot of things of how to diplomacize, and now that he's up for HOTW3 its going to be really great with him involved. Chris' definite moment, just like Deity's, had to be the events surrounding the first World War. I mean that was probably the golden age of HOTW2. The AL was at their height, Australia was just getting started towards its destiny, the Zulu empire was strong but didn't really say much, Mali was a fiesy up and comer, and China was just breaking from its AI shackles (althugh it wouldn't stand up to its Pacific Pact allies almost two thousand years later). Its just the way Chris used this situations to his full and utter advantage was astonishing, he managed to get his only competition in the West massacred, and didn't lose a single drop of Mali blood in the process. I still think it is revenge for the Louisiana Incident between the AL and Mali, but I'm not sure.

Prometheus - Now this guy I am really proud of, but I still think he has a long way to go before proving he's a great diplogame player. We picked him up after SunTzu no showed the first session and we played China as AI. War4Ever, in his infinite wisdom (but complete and utter lack of courtesy) decided to surround the AI Chinese and settle out a great part of Asia, including southern China itself. For all this Prometheus managed to take the scraps he was thrown and turn it into a successful nation. I'm talking Deity was starting to worry at the end of the game. So I'd be happy to have Prometheus back for HOTW3, we'll see.

Rasputin - Man oh man. Raz I'm going to tell you straight out; I hated your ass the entire time. It wasn't until later that I realized how good you were at this stuff, your diplomacy could work but your posts and upkeep of a national character is very good. Drake really didn't like you at times, and like I've said I eally hated you at first. The thing that I couldn't stand, but will admit its very much my fault, is that everytime I was AI you'd attack me, defeat my AI then act like you beat me. The hilarious part is that we've never actually engaged in combat before, all you've fought is my AI. That's the only thing I couldn't stand was his constant equation of my AI with me. But for a nation that was the smallest winding up the strongest at the end of the game is pretty amazing. Israel/WAAR fed off of Europe and Mali for their emire, Israel once had NO colonies in the new world, now it owns everything that was onc Adriatic or Mali. Now that's pretty impressive.

Easthaven - Ahh East. My buddy, my pal if you will. I really liked Easthaven and I hated having to do the "You're kicked out" honors. It wasn't cool because I felt bad doing it, I've been in so many games with this clown its amazing, and its always purely coincidental. But while he did play he was important, he was Mongolia in the Great War... hey East remember when I decimated your entire border patrol... because yes, I do remember when I LOST THE DAMN WAR! Nice work buddy.

Belinda - I remember when Chris left the game, or was more shooken from the game, that's probably a better explaination than anything else I can think of. I looked at my ICQ and I saw this name Belinda, and I remeber back in the day, I think it was for Diplo V or VI, I was the Iberians in this particular game so I think it was V, but memory is pretty fuzzy. So its Tales from the Diplomatic Front V(I), and I am pretty much getting people to join. We have a huge number of people trying to get into this game because it was back in the day during a pretty extensive Diplomatic craze. One of the people that asks to play is Belinda, she explains how she's only payed in SP games and how deuls don't sound too exciting and she wanted to try a diplogame really badly. Now at this juncture I had no definite answers as far as playing goes, just a really long list of people saying they wanted to play but weren't sure. Belinda said she WOULD play, no questions about it. So I told her she could play. Next thing I know I'm kickng her out so Common Terry or TheNothing could play due to Apolytics, I forget which one it was. Yes I understand this story may make me seem very old, but it wasn't THAT long ago that it happened. The funny part is I still remembered it vividly, so when I asked Belinda I thought she'd still be pissed (cuz she chewed me out for "lying" to her) about the whole thing and either just ignore me or worse, she'd yell at me. Neither happened as you guys know, and we got a very nice Mali player out of it. Granted she fought in some pretty brutal wars (like the Fascist-Commie war where me and Israel both attacked, or the last Israeli incursion when she almost lost her country). Lo and behold she stuck it out like a souldja' I'd be happy to have her on board for the sub pool if that's what she wants, but hey, why not regularly? Oh BTW, if she posted a little more than she regularly does, she'd easily have THE MOST AMAZING posts I've ever seen.

Ozzy KP - The Ozman, this is another surprise in this game that I thought I'd never see. I mean not too many people realize that HOTW, the whole idea of HOTW that is, was actually a jointly thought-up idea by myself the the Ozman. There was a little squabble over the idea of "Created v. 'Real' " tribes being used in the game, and you know how I can get when there are squabbles. So we split away, Ozzy pretty much leaving Civ life altogether and myself starting the HOTW series. I really thought after that moron Nap Bonaparte ruined HOTW1 that HOTW2 would fail, I'm very happy to see it go well and with Ozzy as part of it. Hell Ozzy was a part of HOTW2 from the start; it was his map we used! But as a contributing player, and Mongolian leader, in HOTW2 he really managed to change the way of world politics. The Pacific Pact had been slowly crumbling for years, an Ozzy's enterance marked the end of that. Mongolia went out as the Union of Asian States attempting to unify all of Asia. Succeeding in taking European north Siberia and launching a war on China (that should still rage on to this very day). I dunno, if we would have continued the UAS would have been a major player in the endgame, and I'm sure Ozzy could handle that. BTW, in HOTW3 we're PROBABLY going to play on a non-Earth map, and if we do we are all making up our own tribes... you DO know what that means... right Ozzy?

SunTzu - Well, what can I say about SunTzu? He was a very integral part of the game, in a manner of speaking. He ruled over Israel, China, Europe and I believe Mongolia as well but I'm not sure at this point. He added an aspect of the story that, if anything, unified the world as one stage. The SunTzu lineage was apparent in a lot of places and effected a lot of things. I mean let's face it, if the Australian military's academy is named after the guy he must have done something... right?

For time purposes I'd like to thank the following individuals who played in this game with us, to anyone I forget I apologize:

Berzerker

Sekong

Mr. Dimbleby

Hydey

Dangime

War4Ever

Slowwhand

Again, to anyone else that played in HOTW2 I thank you for your time and effort.

[GNGSpam]

This guy managed to convince us that Mali was THE dominant power, and not to rain on his parade but I'm sure that had more to do with his political position than any type of concrete power

No I never was anything resembling a strong country. I think from a pure power perspective I was 5th, only over the Chinese (hampered by the AI) and Israel (hemmed in from colonization).

I started off with possibly the worst land, I mean half of my capital cities radius was friggin desert! So I did what I could, I did what all weak powers have done throughout history, I built a coalition =)

Anyways it was a great game, diplogames are marvelous in that respect, the poor and the pitful always have a way to power.

[Rasputin]

Coming Clean

Well following in the Tradition that Capo started, I too will post some parting memoirs..

I was a late joiner to the game, but I had followed it avidly from the start, I had read and re read all the posts in each and every thread. Tracking the map changes and stuff at Drakes brilliant website too.

Having played Deity in many games I knew his style and how he played, I knew that if he had a ship sailing the med it would be carryinmg settlers and/or troops. I also knew he would have secret deals with a few players especially those not his allies!!!

I didnt know any others and so only learnt their style from their posts , not always the best way to learn. But I could see that Chris had used strong hand tactics to convince Dimbley (the original Israeli leader) to halt progress into Africa. I saw from the maps that the Adriatics had rushed toward the mideast leaving Europe empty, to make sure the Israelis couldnt go North. I saw that the Mongols expanded rapidly under their grea tleader and were soon on the East border of israel. A Combination of a weak leader and strong players around him left Israel small and pathetic. AS I read all th eposts I yearned to play, I knew if the Israelis stood strong they could do better.

Then suddenly a vacnacy occured, Dimbly was gone and Sun Tzu couldnt play. I offered my services as a sub, ( hoping for more). The following week I became addicted and took over as permanent leader of the Israelis.

Now for the truth.....

When I joined, I made hard and fast rules that my nation would bring justice to my people for all the years of constraint enforced on us by the afore mentioned nations, Mali, Adriatic and Mongol. I felt it was well within Diplo rules to fight oppresion.

So my game plan from the beginning wasnt to be part of any alliance , but only to use any allaince i could get to further my aims. (Very damn selfish I know). This of course led to the others hating me in my region.!!!

Shortly after joining the Mali palyer was subbed (cant remeber eho it was) and they threatened war, but I wasnt ready yet, the Barracks building program had only just begun. So I feigned great weakness and was soon aided by Deity with gold and soon after troops. Within a few sessions the Mali were AI controlled and Drake (Mali ally) said ok to limited war with them. My only goal at that stage was to get the land I knew should have been Israeli anyway, the Nile Valley. This I acheieved and formed peace, meanwhile the Adriatics invaded Mali territory and decimated them in North america and Libya too. This fell into step with my next goal, the plan to get the balkans!!!

Fortunalty or unfortuanlty, Belinda then came in to take Mali, I dont know what history she was told and I never trusted her, suspecting she was a Drake or Capo secret ally. (Paranoid armnt I) . But I knew I needed an ally to get to Capo. So I signed peace and in same turn formed an allaicne with Mali to take Europe. She was to get Spain and Italy. I said I was getting the rest, all I wanted was the Balkans.

This next war of course started the hatred of Zulu and Israelis, every time I attacked an aggresive AI (capo was showing up less and less) the Zulus threatened me. With no apparent support from Mali, I couldnt fight a two front war (YET). So I used master stroke of negotion to swap my conquered European citys for North American ones (not in my original paln, but as I saw my civ grow I changed tack and knew China had to be watched)

Then Ozzy did me the greatest service , he subbed one session for me, I asked him to go for peace, (I had strategically incited Belinda to war by placing troops in her city radius the previosu turn, so I knew how she would react, sorry Bel) but Mali atacked and Ozz used my Veterean Howies to crush Mali into almost nothingness.

Upon my return I played hardball and eventually got all of Mali North america and that meant I was now equal to China in America. Stage 1 and 2 of my palkn complete ( Mali and Adriatics totally weakened beyond repair).

Now my plan was to to incite the Mongols to war with China, I was hoping for a Chinese to destroy the Mongols but at same time be weakened enough for to strike. Leaving just Zulus and Deity.

You see all along I thought the Zulus were a force to be reckoned with, I was honeslty too scareed to take them on. Well palyed by Drake to make them seem so big. If I had gone south into Africa isntead of North to Europe this game may have finished differently.

Oh yeah, it ws about this time all the other players (Except Belinda) wanted to know where my Alleginace lay, I knew I had come of age as a civ when Drake, Capo, Prometheus and even Deity wanted me to agree t otheir palns. This is when I sold the game out !! I chose to help Deity (after all he hleped me earlier in game when I needed it) But I promised the world to the others. To Drake I promised a coalition to fight Deity, whislt sending al lthe info I got from him straigh to Deity (NASTY) Then Oz asked for to help attack China, I had the forces I had the might, but at the last minute , I didnt do anything to stop the destruction of Mongolia (Justice Again)

Ok so I played selfishly and should have teamed agisnt Deity and forced him back to the pack. Well actually I tried....

Ok for more backstabbing heres the goss, Whilst the AI controlled Europeans, I gave them all the techs they needed to build Manhattans. (BAD BOY) I hoped an Agreesive AI would build Manhattans, which the Aussies threatened to destroy, in the meantime I was ready to build Nukes.!!!!! But dammit, Capo came back and started building UN !!!!

But it wasnt over yet!!! I then noticed Zulus building UN too. And would youi beleive they came to me aske dfor money to rush build Manhattan (this was after Aussie genicide in South America) I gave them the gold, but they decided in end to continue with UN..

My final back up paln was going to be I would build Manhatans and bluff the Aussies out. I had my Paciifc Island City of Solomon Island set for the nuke attacj, submarines were buildt to carry the nukes. I had enough subs and Production capabilty to nuke every mainland city in Australia.....

But it never got there, The Aussies showed how good they were and we all resigned to lif eunder Aussie domination, Now we are forced to have BBQs every night and watch Steve Irwin!!!!!


I hope you lal realise I played a character and it wasnt reaaly me, I prefer city building and not wars, but the situation I found my civ in I took the only path I could see.....


And except for one bad day when I too ka few verbal attacks personally, I truly enjoyed this amazing game.......



thre that is the truth, I hope that explains why I played the weay I did.. And for al lyou wimps, you should have palyed on just to see the look on Deitys face when that first Nuke landed in Canberra !!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Capo]

Hmm...

Raz, everyone knew what you were doing the entire time except the end part. I really had no clue and thought that you would join Australia and fight us, but the rest was pretty obvious. I NEVER figured for a second you gave my AI nation techs out of the goodness of your heart. And I'm sure we're all aware that Israel's greatest asset throughout the game was European AI, but alas its over...

Anyway I think we should kind of mold this thread into a "HOTW 3" thread so that we can begin discussing some issues.

Like first off if I have a list of people that have offered their services, and this is just off the top of my head so I'm sure I'm missing people, they are:

Capo
Chris (GNGSpam)
Deity
Belinda

Other than these four I have heared no other people actually say they will be available for the game. What I think would be wise is to either have five or six tribes, most likely five, but I think we'll have a pretty nice demand to join the game so we may have to bump it to six. If it is five I'd like to have four HOTW2 players and a new one, if it is six I'd like to have four HOTW2 players and two new ones. Either way we should have at least four HOTW2 players.

I try to make it a point to include some new blood in on these diplogames to keep the trend rolling along (which is part of the reason why I think the original diplo-popularity didn't last).

After we decide on who's playing we should probably decide upon the map we are going to use. IE either an Earth map or a completely made-up (However not random) map. If we use the Earth map we are going to use "realistic" tribes, if we use the fake map I'd like everyone to invent their own tribe complete with city list and leader titles, and if they would be so kind what they want their flag to look like and their city styles to be so I can best accomodate HOTW3's cultures.

As far as changes to the rules go we should agree on that as well, but as a point I think we should include HOTW2's Longship, as well as both the Recon plane (which seemed pretty popular) and the Mobile SAM (Which we really didn't get too much of a shot to use).

Alright, that's it for now, I've got a paper on Vladimir Ilyich Lenin to turn in tomorrow and it aint writing itself!

Peace.

[Rasputin]

Capo , there is a thread on a NEw improved Diplo game already, there are over 9 players mentioned in that one....

Frank is palnning a mod using your wonderful mod as a base and adding a few things,,,

[belinda9]

yeah, capo, check out deity's thread "Discussion " for new Thursday night diplogame
you're late LOL
as they've been talking about it for a couple of weeks: already a tenative lineup
maybe since there's such a list y'all might think about divvying up into teams -- I think this has been mentioned previously. Especially if RL is going to interfere with a weekly committment (as in my case: I can't commit to another night when I'm already embarked upon a new on on Mondays, which is why I'm just going for the sub pool on this one)..that way, you can either swap off who plays/posts or if one can't make it the other can.
IMO, one of the reasons the turns got so long was the number of players. I really think you ought to look at holding it to 6 max.
Maybe with a little experience in Tales of Gaia and sub for HOTW3 I'll be ready for HOTW4 in '03 LOL!

[deity]

Teams!

I got an intermittent availability coming up due to work.

I can't play this USA Thurs night but can the week after. I'd like to team up with Capo? Or someone who can start off this week then I do the next and so on, subject to our availabilities.

Regardless I think a game should get going this week if Frank/Capo have a modpak ready????

If Frank can't kick off this week maybe team up with Raz?

But I know Makeo and others are ready to go now!

When HOTW3 starts in January we can work out overlaping availability problems then. Maybe HOTW3 becomes a Fri night game?

EDIT! Ooooops, wrong thread

[Rasputin]

Ok fellows, could we please limit the final posts here to the Summaries to be posted by all players...

HOTW3 Thread to be opened Soon......!!!!!

[War4ever]

Re: Err, Thanks I think!

Originally posted by deity
but a game with the same original seven players would definitely be the best way to go.
And such a shame that *****, War4ever, screwed it all up

Jeez Deity..... IIRC there was a death in the family, strikes me odd that the game would be "all screwed up" because i left.

i had a legitimate reason for pulling out of the game. I have noticed that alot of different players have played parts of this game.

In reality my three sessions could represent the "War4ever Dynasty" and Sekong could have been another dynasty ..etc etc... instead you feel the need to rip on me

IIRC i found a sub in Sekong who you all enjoyed having in the game for the time he was there.

it was the chinese that couldn't make the first start time.....not me....

i have followed this game because i always had a special fondness for all the infighting er i mean out of game diplomacy ! actually i have alot of respect for the players in this game.

Diplogaming is alot of fun but its obvious that strong personalities can cause friction amongst the players.

Rules need to be followed to the "T" to avoid haggling. start times need to be adhered to of course everyone needs to write down their affairs.......

For the most part we had that.....

Deity i certainly wouldn't flame you if you needed to pull out of an ongoing game because of a death in the family...or any other plausible reason.

[The Capo]

An Apology

On behalf of everyone who played in HOTW2, espcially those who played with you War4, I apologize.

Deity was most likely angered that his plans at the time were ruined becuase of your absence and not the game itself. I mean how could you have possibly ruined it by leaving, it was so long ago that to even equate your leave with the troubles at the end is just ludicrous.

You were a good player, and for that short period a worthy adversary and ambassador. I hope that I will have the opportunity to play you again.

Thanks a lot.

[Rasputin]

Re: Err, Thanks I think!

Originally posted by deity
Hi Chris

And such a shame that *****, War4ever, screwed it all up

I think Deity included the wink at end of this line as an indication that he wasnt serious about all this War.. Well I certainly hope so

I didnt get the chance to play with you , but from the posts and what the Mongols has after you left, you certainly played well and deserved better!!!