Turns of SMACDatAss

[smhfan86]

I thought we had found the problem.

You and Fromage signed a pact and you sent him techs before you had made contact, which explains why Mong could still offer you the Hive comm, and the Hive your comm, and why it never showed pact in your profiles, even though you two were clearly getting energy from the pact.

Fromage, u did not kill 7 of my mindworms, more like 2 or 3 at most.

And you've got plenty more trance units than you claim.

[DilithiumDad]

Well, I thought something was fishy when I sas that the Spartans had a pact with the Hive, and when I asked for the Hive's commlink they were unable to produce it and pass it to me. You may have noticed that I went around to every other faction begging for the Hive's commlink, as that was the "missing link" for my being able to call elections.

I'm sure no one will believe me, but I'm not sure how I got the Hive's commlink. In 2205 I couldn't call countil and the next turn (2206) I could. I had two windows saying "so-and-so has accepted our diplomatic efforts" but of course with no details as to what was traded. I had thought it was from the Spartans, but maybe not.

I have my saved game files through 2198. I suggest we jump in the time machine and go back to the turn that the erroneous pact was formed. Granted, we all have knowledge that we did not have in 2200 or 2201 (location of unity pods, unexpected drones popping up, random events, etc.). It will be interesting to see how things turn out when everyone has forknowledge of what is to be.

[Mongoose]

I must retract a remedy I suggested in error.

Hive possession of Secrets of the Brain predates the Spartan relationship...it must have been IceCube's tech fromm the beginning. There is no need to disband trance units.

Likewise, CDS, Hive has had High Energy Chemistry for as long as I know about. No action need be taken in regard to any plasma armoured units.

[DilithiumDad]

If we go back to 2200 before the erroneous pact and tech trades were made, there will be no need for disbandment of units or other such strageness.

[KrysiasKrusader]

Following is everything that I am aware that has happened concerning the Spartan - Hive contact; pact; and call for election. This has all been checked and verifyed several times over.

- 2199: Fromage mistakes a probe foil (probably a Believer one) for one of my units. He contacts me by e-mail saying we made contact. I assumed it was legit (actaully it never crossed my mind that it wasen't), so I never bothered to check. My mistake, that (hopefully) shouldn't happen again.

- 2200: We treated. I don't remember who sent the offer in the diplomatic box (I think it was me), but we obviously both agreed to it.

- 2201: Fromage offers me a pact in the diplomatic box, I accept. I sent him Planetary Networks ( I have this in an e-mail).

- 2202: I sent him Industrial Automation (indirect evidence suggested from an e-mail I have).

- 2203: I may have sent him another tech (I can't remember).

- 2204: I probably sent him Sythetic Fossil fuels (I can't remember either, but it would fall in with our strategy). Myself, claw919, Fromage, and DilithiumDad start passing around everybodies comm. freq.'s to each other.

- 2205: Comm. freq.'s pass around completed. Election called by the P.K.'s.


So that's the story...

I would like to thank all the people who helped in finding out what happened.

EDIT: Corrected from new evidence.

[smhfan86]

Well, if we replay starting from before KK and Fromage contact each other, then all agreements made between the two no longer hold. And anyone else Fromage contacted afterwards.

Of course, they can make contact if and when they meet physically in game, however, they do know where each other are now, so that's an advantage.

Also, I believe that no email negotiations can take place until after contact in game, correct?

[Claw919]

Sorry - extreme chaos right now.

Okay - what does everyone want to do about this? We could either:

1) Continue the game as is, with some sort of sanctions against the 2 violators

2) Replay from turn 2199 (6 turns back), with caveat that KK and Fromage don't know each other

3) Drop the bugger altogether.

If anyone has any other suggestions, I'm all for it. Personally, I *HATE* replaying turns, so I'm personally for #1 - but whatever the majority would like.

And yes - no email negotiations before contact.

Thoughts? Anyone?

Dave

[Fromage]

I would vote for 1, but we should replay from 2205 so elections wouldn't be arranged and I wouldn't get those techs I got in 2206. I won't use any techs I got, before I contact someone willing to give them to me. That would include:
- Missile units
- Probes
- Planned

If we start from the 2205, I will chance away from planned, dispand my only probe and make just a truce with spartans. Then I would only have got some energy from trade, but I will lose 2-3 times more energy to useless probe teams and switching between planned and simple.

Smh, you are right about the trance units. In last two turns I have build much more of those. Anyway, I checked the 2199 file and IceCube really allready had techs for plasma/trance units, so that shouldn't be any problem.

Is playing from 2205 ok with everyone?

[Fromage]

KrysiasKrusader, those first years are a bit wrong.

2199 was the first turn I played.

2200 I saw the beliver's ship and contacted you.

Rest of them is correct, I think.

[DilithiumDad]

We only need to replay from 2202, when you consumated your tech deals. The treaty of 2201 is irrelevant --I doubt you got any commerce as Hive.

So I vote for replay from 2202, or from my 2201 save (2202 for Claw and Fromage).

I am also OK with comtinuing with penalties if they can be agreed to by Fromage, K.K. and Mongoose. I don't care about those details --anything is fine by me.

[KrysiasKrusader]

Yeah Fromage, your correct.

I had thought that we danced around for a year before the treaty, but obviously not since your first turn was indeed 2199.

I will edit my previous post to show this.

[Claw919]

DD does have a point - 2201 (and 1/2) would be a good starting point, but with the extra caveat that until KK and Fromage actually DO exchange commlinks (be it from another player, or contact, or the CEO calling an election), no election can be called.

It's most appropriate to hear from the people directly affected by this (eg. those currently attacking Fromage), as it's obviously directly affecting them most.

[Mongoose]

Originally posted by Fromage
I would vote for 1, but we should replay from 2205 so elections wouldn't be arranged and I wouldn't get those techs I got in 2206. I won't use any techs I got, before I contact someone willing to give them to me. That would include:
- Missile units
- Probes
- Planned

If we start from the 2205, I will chance away from planned, dispand my only probe and make just a truce with spartans. Then I would only have got some energy from trade, but I will lose 2-3 times more energy to useless probe teams and switching between planned and simple.

Smh, you are right about the trance units. In last two turns I have build much more of those. Anyway, I checked the 2199 file and IceCube really allready had techs for plasma/trance units, so that shouldn't be any problem.

Is playing from 2205 ok with everyone?

From whose 2205, Fromage?

We could proceed from DD's 2205 (his last turn) but we must do so with the knowledge that the Hive/Gaian and Hive/PK commlinks are unknown, as well as the Hive/Spartan. As best I can determine, Fromage's acceptance of the PK commlink in his 2205 turn is what gave DD the ability to call the council. That ability is nil until the Hive comm can be legally provided to him, or becomes unnecessary. (sly wink)

Sanctions - I agree to limit Hive sanctions to the SE change from PLANND to SIMPLE and the disbandment of the probe team. Of course, no units enabled by the techs you had received by your 2205 can be buikt until you can legally obtain them...probes, missile units and crawlers. Also, of course, the PLANNED and WEALTH SE choices cannot be used unitl the requisite techs can be obtained.

I disagree about shielding the Spartans from any sanctions. They have received about 50 commerce from this relationship since its inception. More importantly, they are as culpable in this entire fisasco as Hive is. It is the responsilility of both players to assure that the contact rules are followed.

However, I modify my suggestion that the Spartan penalty be the disbandment of all probes to limit that disbandment to 5 rows of probes...one foil or one speeder and one infantry or three infantry.

I suppose I ought to put this in the form of a resolution and submit it for a vote.

I propose we recommence play from DD's 2205 turn.

I further propose that the Hive/Spartan, Hive/Gaian and Hive/PK commlinks be considered not to ahve been obtained by either party until one of the three is obtained by legal game mechanisms and 'passed' to the others by diplomatic transaction. This will have to be a phantom transaction, as the game will no longer generate the item in the diplomacy screen.

Sanctions to be imposed on Hive: Disbandment of all probes, in the open, without mineral benefit to ongoing construction. Immediate change of SE away from PLANNED (Frontier or Fundy are OK, Hive has had Brain from the start) Neither PLANNED nor WEALTH can be selected until industrial automation can be legally obtained.

Units enabled by Synthetic Fuels (missile and fungicide) Industrial Automation (crawlers and trawlers) and Planetary Networks (probes of whatever chassis) cannot be built until the requisite tech can be legally obtained.

Sanctions to be imposed on Sparta: Disbandment in the clear of probe units which aggregate construction cost must be at least 5 rows of minerals, in the open, without mineral benefit to ongoing construction.

Please vote. I vote for the proposal, of course.

[Mongoose]

Cross posted with Dave.

I wish to minimize the replayed turns. I do not share DD's fascination with seeing how differently the campaign against the Hive might go if he has foreknowledge of what I will or can do. I cannot see any justification for providing Hive that reward.

Why should I lose the benefit of achieving strategic surprise?

[Fromage]

I meant replaying from the first player who plays 2205. I got two com links and Synthetic Fuels in that turn, so we wouldn't have to worry about those.

I would vote for 2205, but everything else will be fine too.