whats the best group?

[Garth Vader]

This is why so many kinds of "cheating" is grey area. In Vel's example he is upgrading his crawler as a peace frog. So the primary purpose of the upgrade is not to speed up a SP.

In SP I have built a crawler, and when it was finished I switched the base to the SP whose tech I just researched, upgraded the crawler and got a massive boost. This IMHO is bending the intention of crawlers. I got like 90 minerals towards my SP for 30 minerals and like 70 ec. where normally that extra 60 minerals would cost 240.

I don't have a problem with rushbuilding crawlers though. Because the cost difference isn't usually so profound.

It would have been nice if some of these tactics had been taken care of on the design level.

[Enigma]

Thanks for the detailed breakdown of year by year progress Vel, proving your strategy guide writing skills once again =].

Have you played as Morgan much recently? The UoP is nice but I do not really enjoy playing them nearly as much as any other faction, the Believers are higher on my list. I play mostly on standard planets simply because I find micromanaging too many bases is tedious, so note that the years for the following are slightly faster than would be on a large or huge planet.

I do not play with the option where you have a mobile first colony pod instead of an HQ base, I guess I could... I just like getting the energy from your base square from year 1, and relocating is extremely easy. The way I play Morgan is highly different from how you play the UoP, in a way I think is logical, but I would appreciate advice.

Years 1-3 nothing happens, I set my first research priority for Biogenetics. I move my 2nd colony pod to a suitable site 3 squares away from my HQ and plop down another colony pod. My initial production for my 1st base varies... but the net result is that it doesnt really matter... I just try to keep more than 10 minerals stockpiled so I can hurry recycling tanks when the day comes.

Year 3-5 my 2nd base is established, production set to synthemetal sentinal.

Year 6 is usually my first breakthrough, sometimes earlier if I have specials. I switch production in both bases to recycling tanks and spend all of my cash on the tanks. Set next research priority to industrial economics.

Year 7 both tanks finish. Production (usually...) set to colony pods.
Note that there is not a token garrison: sine I will be switching to FM so soon police are irrelevent and I try not to depend on them. I will have enough bases that I can have a major income, and if attackers come hurry in a scout patrol or something similar and upgrade to a synth sentinal, or armor a former etc.

My bases can grow extremely quickly at this point. A completely average square will allow the base to grow in 11 turns(not counting food before recycling tanks are hurried), a rainy/monolith/food square will allow the base to grow in a mere 7 turns!

Year 11-13 colony pod finishes at 1st base. Look at situation, next construction usually colony pod
Year 13-15 colony pod finishes at 2nd base. Next production usually another C pod.
Year 12-16 industrial economics. Switch ASAP! Next research varies: Centauri eco is not always an option, if it is not than info nets is my choice. Otherwise I choose centauri eco. I need stuff for my crawlers to harvest once they come into play.

Here is a guess as to what my energy looks like the moment I switch to FM:
My HQ is making 4 energy in its base square, + 1 energy from recycling tanks, +1 energy from being an HQ. I will usually have 1 extra energy from rivers/monoliths etc, this combined with my SE allow for my non base square square to produce (on average) 2 energy. Total 8 energy HQ, 7 energy at 2nd base. Look at it this way: not researching centauri ecology right away allows me to take away the mineral that forests produce and replace it with (roughly) equal energy at the square the population is harvesting, and vastly superior energy at the base square.

3rd and 4th bases founded between years 15 and 20, recycling tanks hurried if possible.
Then I go straight for industrial auto. If I am alone I usually get it in the mid to late 20's (ouch this is awful compared to Zack).

What I hurry varies each game: I try to avoid having bases reach size 2. Garrisons depend on how bad the terrain is, but even if it is pretty bad I almost never start building garrisons until my first pods are out. If a base is losing minerals to support then I will help it with my (very significant) economy, hurrying facilities at that base.

Once I get industrial auto I hopefully have formers hurried in at my largest few bases already, I switch to wealth ASAP again. Formers produce very very basic road networks and sensors only on frontiers. With industrial auto I start cranking out crawlers: at this point (if I don't have it already) I research social psych too and rush in recreation commons at my best bases. I crank out crawlers at my innermost bases but my expansion is still constant. I hardly ever cash in crawlers to build SP's. Like Ogie though I try to avoid cashing in crawlers in large numbers, instead I prefer the 80 mineral synthemetal trance crawlers, which are more energy efficient for upgrades than synth crawlers alone. I work my production up to 14-18 before I start projects, and continue bringing in crawlers from other bases that are not building SP's to boost the production to 16-20. I start my first SP somewhere between the late 40's to the mid 50's. I always choose the HGP as my first choice. I almost always rush in a rec commons to SP producing bases before they start. I finish the HGP somewhere between the 50's and the 70's, the 70's is not a worse case scenario but that happens when I feel I am not racing the comp so I do not focus my resources as much on a single base and instead start 2 SP's(HGP/WP) simultaneously.

I would love some advice on how to improve this from the standpoint of production/research, I know it is not safe at all. The early years with Morgan are always messy! That support penalty hurts until I have the crawlers.

Well ya'all were mostly describing your EARLY game strategy but what is early game to a UoP play is early-mid games to most mere mortals . I just would appreciate some feedback. Again this is extremely risky but I try to use it to maximise Morgan's early game strengths while minimizing his weaknesses. His energy can be surprisingly useful if an enemy tries to surprise attack you: Units can be hurried out of nowhere.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Nigma,

I remember you covering this as an approach for Morgan before. I tried it out and was mightily impressed. In fact, it was what started to give the inspiration for messing around with early (i.e. first) tech choices being something other than Centauri Ecology.

From that I found that I actually like to forgo formers for a number of factions including initial tech tree guidelines to be

Lal

Industrial Base
Industrial Econ - Go FM ASAP
then to formers
then back to beeline through IA

Domai

Same as Lal

(The above two factions take advantage of ability to run base populations of 2 w/o drone riot and do so running FM ASAP all the while pumping up energy for research/spending of which both are hindered in one fashion or another Lal through efficiency loss and Domai through research penalty. Kind of makes up for the penalties applied to both these factions)

Zak - as I indicated, Beeline all the way through IA before you need formers for bases 3 and greater.

Morgan - As you indicated

The other factions (aside from Morgan as you outlined) still make sense at this point to be the traditional former first approach.

Anyway, I'ld be interested in hearing others thoughts on alternative start technology approaches as your Morgan one is a real winner.


[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited December 01, 2000).]

[jones]

I too would like to see a Morgan analysis. Getting those critical early SPs seems almost impossible on large/huge, and i'm usually obliged to beeline for crawlers to have a shot even on standard maps.

Maybe this has been done to death already. There sure aren't many who'll pick Morgan in MP games not to mention tossing blind research into the mix.

jones

[Jason Berkan]

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe on 12-01-2000 01:16 PM Anyway, I'ld be interested in hearing others thoughts on alternative start technology approaches as your Morgan one is a real winner.

While I am nowhere near as accomplished in SMAC as many of the other posters around here, I have found that Yang is one faction where I will rarely start with the Former tech.

With Yang I find it especially important to get Recycling Tanks, and to have them built ASAP (even before formers.) Without the tanks (and with poor base placement), it is easy for Yang to have no energy production from his bases at all.

The energy from the tanks allows some research while the formers are working.

Past that, I try to jump to IA, as other's have mentioned. (Did I mention I'm not a momentum player?) That path has the added bonus of providing the Planned SE choice, which increases Yang's inherent bonuses. (However, Yang will never complete this path as fast as some other factions - on a Huge map, I can usually get IA somewhere around 2160-2170 - which seems extremely late compared to Zak!)

Once every base has enough energy being crawled, I tend to research whatever seems good at the time.

[Garth Vader]

I still go formers first with Yang. Although for the same reason as you go for rec tanks first. So that I can make a forest and get some energy. I go for tanks second.

My best time for IA with the Hive was turn 32. I got the two economic techs in a trade with Morgan and then I think I got IA in a pod. That game was sweet!

[Enigma]

Garth:
Wow! That would be truly amazing to be the chairman with real energy production that early on. You could have taken a semi builder approach that game- just expand fast, build a lot of formers, and rely on your great police to keep drone maintenence costs down.

I like formers when I play Hive because I try to find a rolling moist square 1000 feet or above, and then solar that. This is sorta similar to the size 1 borehole cities that Borg players like to use. If this is at your HQ it will double your research energy, otherwise it will probably give you energy for your economy. Having (some) energy is good so you can change your SE settings.

I think if I played more online games I would be more of a momentum player... I discuss strategies that can be used in single player games mainly because there are so many conditionals in MP it is impossible to try to improve your strategy by discussion.

Ogie: The strategy I outlined above seems nice, but surely there must be a way to improve it? It is fairly sloppy how I lose minerals to a production switch in the first decade...

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Nigma,

Yes I agree that first switch from the Merchanet X-change to Recyclee tanks normally waste 2-3 mins fo rthose first two bases .... but.... perhaps if the allocation to labs was upped a little (at cost of econ) you may gain a turn or so in researchingthat first tech and eliminate/minimze the mineral loss.

Gonna give it a go and check it out.

Og

[Enigma]

Good idea! Morgan's 100 credits allows for 25 minerals to go to each base anyways, and it would take only a little bit more energy than that to make each base be able to produce the recycling tanks very easily. Those 4-6 minerals gained would offset the 8-16(?) energy lost. Or not? Anyway that sort of suggestion is just the sort of thing that I would not think of, I am used to allocating energy a fair amount but not that early on.

[weird god]

a major part of this thread is about the new factions. i don´t have the expansion set by now because i baught the game as it was totaly new. i didn´t really miss it though i thought it would be funny. but it seems it opens much new aspects and more strats.....but is it really worth the money?

------------------
mankind made alcohol, god made weed.....whom do you trust?


weed god, chief of EUROPA
[This message has been edited by weird god (edited December 07, 2000).]

[Simpson II]

Ummm... this is kind of late as well as OT, but on the crawler-upgrading-is-a-cheat issue, one point decided it for me. When you upgrade a normal unit, your mineral rating doesn't change the cost. When you upgrade crawlers it does (someone may want to check this, it's been a while and I haven't got SMAC beside me. ) Given that that's the case, the designers clearly intended for crawlers to be upgraded then cashed in. Otherwise why bother? So IMO it's no more a cheat than nerve-gas (though I'd be quite willing to play a game without that!

[Clear Skies]

OK, my favourite factions.

It's always so hard to choose, but I NEVER ever ever ever choose the Believers, the Hive or the Usurpers. I know it's kinda stupid, but there you have it. I have my reasons...

My favourite original SMAC faction: the Gaians.
Yeah, sure, leap down my throat, but their +2 efficiency rating really makes a difference if you, like me, like playing on massive maps.
Also, I find the Peacekeepers really good. Their x2 votes for Planetary Governor and Supreme Leader help me a lot.

Favourite Alien Crossfire factions: why the plural? The Cybernetic Consciousness are the only ones I play with any regularity whatsoever. Their research is just so useful, and it's so easy to beat the living daylights out of anyone else whilst still retaining a technological advantage.
On Alien Crossfire, I always think technology is everything. Knowledge is power. If you have it, you can rule the world....

[Sikander]

quote: Originally posted by Simpson II on 12-08-2000 06:07 AM Ummm... this is kind of late as well as OT, but on the crawler-upgrading-is-a-cheat issue, one point decided it for me. When you upgrade a normal unit, your mineral rating doesn't change the cost. When you upgrade crawlers it does (someone may want to check this, it's been a while and I haven't got SMAC beside me. ) Given that that's the case, the designers clearly intended for crawlers to be upgraded then cashed in. Otherwise why bother? So IMO it's no more a cheat than nerve-gas (though I'd be quite willing to play a game without that!

Simpson,

I respectfully disagree. I think the reason crawlers are effected by the mineral rating is that they are in fact designed to trade for fair value when they are brought in to help a special project. If the designers wanted to give you a cheap way to buy production, why go to all of the trouble to make you build and upgrade a crawler? This smac(k)s of a coding artifact to me. While I would not go nearly so far as to call this a cheat, I would insist that in a multiplayer game or a challenge that everyone be made aware of whether this tactic is considered kosher or not, as it seems like an unintended feature.

------------------
"Who's the twinkle-toed little commy ****-sucker who just signed his own death warrant?"

[Skanderbeg]

I would like to add my remarks about the factions.

But first, I have to remark that the relative strength
of the factions depends also on the level Your are playing. For example, the additional talent per 4 for the PK and the additional drone per 4 for the UoP mean very much in citizen level, but they become very important in transcendent level.

And my personal game style is that I like to have high
moral troops, good science and a positive planet rating.

My opinion about the factions:

1. The Gaians:
to play: One of the stronger factions. Ideal for beginners. I like them because of their positive planet rating.
to play against: sometimes a good ally, but often played weak by the AI. Let them start next to Miriam and Yang, and they will be crushed.

2. The Believers:
to play: One of the weaker factions. Play them right (that means attacking and probing) or You die. Difficult to play when starting on a huge map without neighbors.
to play against: You normally don't find the believers
in an average position. They make war from the beginning, and if they win, they can become very mighty with all the occuppied bases, but if they loose (normally because of their bad tech), they will be crushed. Their always aggresive behavior is easy to calculate.

3. The University
To play: I like to play them because of their good science and their free networlk nodes, but the difficulty to play them increases with the level.
Certainly one of the stronger factions.
To play against: Can be a good ally and tech trading partner in the early and mid game. When neighboured to
a warmanger faction, his importance will normally fade during the game. Also in the later game, You can't trust him as an ally.

4. The Hive
To play: I play them rarely, simply because I don't like the face of Yang. But when a played them, I found that they were very strong. Their producing capacity is inbelievable.
To play against: They are strong enemies, because of the industrie and their good defense. Their behavior is easy to calculate.

5. The Peace Korps
To play: A strong faction, because of their flexibility. The addiational talents are a big bonus on the higher levels.
To play against: The AI can't play them as strong as they could be, they normally have only average importance. The diplomacy with them is PiA. You can't trust Lal as far You can look in fungus.

6. The Spartans
To play: If You play them right, they can be strong, but this is not so easy. I don't like them very much.
To play against: Their behavior is easy to calculate.
The AI plays them with average strength.

7. The Morganites
To play: I know, a lot of people lik to play Morgan, but I have the greatest difficulties with him. I think, this depends on my prefered style of playing, I normally refuse to make the SE Choices that give bad support and negative planet ratings.
To play against: Real PiA. Ever conquered a Morganite city with Your best troops and bought it back by a probe team just ander Your a** away? Number two on my "most hated factions-rating". Handle with care until late game, then build flechettes, def orbs and some handy singularity planet busters. Then show this money-bags where the hammer hangs!

8. The free drones
to play: They have a slow start, but they really boost in the mid and late game. Certianly one of the strongest factions.
to play against: The drones are often very trustable allies. They are sometimes played very strong by the AI. In the late game, they are producing regularly great ecodamage because of their big production, be prepared for that (pressure domes, ecological enhancements).

9. The Cybernetic
to play: I still havent played them very much, but I think, they can get very strong because of their good science, If You do something to equalize their bad growth (children's creches + SE choices).
to play against: the AI plays them very bad, because the AI can't handle their bad growth. They are good allies and tech trading partners in the early and mid game - until they get erased by a warmonger faction.

10. The Cult of Planet
to play: My personal opinion: This faction is underestimated by most players because of the way the AI plays this faction. I have got my first victory on transcendent level with a non-customized faction with the CoP, so I will give them the honour they deserve.
Play their strenghts, work to get some friends among the other factions, and, despite of Your bad economy and industry, You have a good chance to win the game.
to play against: Cha Dawn certainly is the poor boy who must play alone because nobody wants to be his friend.
With his untrustable behavior he will often be in vendetta with all other factions, an so the Cult can normally easy be victimased.

11. The Data Angels:
to play: They are not easy to play. You must play their strenghts or you will be wormmeat. The most important thing playing the Datajacks: Infiltrate the other faction as soon as possible. When they have cruisers
and needlejets, the chances for successful probe actions
are decreasing. The second important: Get the Hunter Seeker SP.
to play against: Clear statement: Number One on my personal "most hated factions-Ranking". Most important to play against them: Get the HSA (I know that's often not easy: The Angels often lead in tech because of their probing actions). My personal tip: Avoid, if possible, to share a continent with them. The AI rarely (?never) build probe skimships oder probe cruisers, so you are save against their probes (this tip works as well with miriam). Wait until late game, when You have flechettes in Your SP cities and some def orbs and then: See under "Morganites"

12. The Pirates
to play: Next do Domai one of the (or just the) strongest of the 12 human factions. Their fast expansion, early pod-popping and earyl contacts (with tech trading etc), and occupations of landmarks (often the Pirates are the first who find the island with the manifold nexus ore something else) can give them a fast start and make them very strong. But they are certainly not the faction for players who love extensive terraforming.
to play against: they can make real trouble. Sven is nearly as untrustable as Lal, and he likes to surround Your continent with his sea bases. In conquering games, they Pirates are often the last surviving AI faction.

13. and 14: The Caretakers and Ursurpers
to play: to play them against the AI is nearly cheating, because they are so strong. And I have never heard of the human AI factions using nerve gas against them.
to play against: In the early game, they are Your worst nightmare. You really do not want to fight a Ursurper battle ogre with your scout patrols
or synthmetal garrison, won't you? So, in the early game, do what they want. Give them money, tech, even betray your allies to please the aliens, but when you got Your first three or four nerve gas rovers ready, it's payback time! Additional remark: The aliens are never trustable allies.

So, in resume, the factions I most love to play, are the Drones and the Pirates, followed by the Peace Korps. But I would not regret to do a good game again with the Cult of Planet or the Hive.

And the factions I hate most to play against are, of course, those probe-loving moneybags, the Datajacks and the Morganites. Not far behind them, the Pirates and the Peace-Korps. Even Domai sometimes is PiA for me,
because of the ecodamage he causes. I think, If I like to play a faction and hate to play against them, it's a sign of their reals strength.
The warmonger factions are normally not my hate factions, because You know what You have to expect from them and how to handle them. Even if You get badly spanked by them, it's okay.

Additionally I have to say that I have some customized
factions, some a little weaker then the average human factions to play with.
And I have two strong factions expecially made to play against (playing them myself would be cheating because of their strength). They can be very challenging.
The first is a very strong human faction with free def. perimeters as Yang, but with strong science, economy and industry + 25% attack bonus as Miriam.
The other is a faction with the same settings as the Pirates, but they are aliens. To win against this factions is very pleasing of course.

[Vultures Row]

Ok I am just getting caught up again in here and I thought Id throw my two cents in.

In classic SMAC my favorite faction is the Morganites..perhaps because I was an economics major in college I love the flexibility that having lots of cash provides. I avoid the support problems by running a pure thin expansion. Of course I will alter that pattern if circumstances dictate.Ive always been fairly successful with Morgan.

In SMACX I still love Morgan but a very close 2nd is the Drones. In my opinion, they are darn near being overpowered. That industry bonus is very powerful. As someone pointed out, the AI plays a mean Drone game.

Recently Ive been tinkering with the Pirates. I really like the flavor and the different mindset that playing them brings to the game.

Another faction I was having fun with was playing the Believers as a builder faction. I remember talking pretty extensively on that particular subject with a user whose name here was Adam Smith...is he still around?

Enigma I seem to recall having some pretty good discussions in here with you in regards to Morgan. On that note about Morgan, I try not to play him for too many consecutive games. When I switch to another faction I really miss my money!

Chris