whats the best group?

[mark13]

To be honest, I am of the opinion that the UoP is slightly too powerful. This opinion is based upon a certain secret project - The Virtual World. Now let's face it, if the UoP doesn't get the VW, they are going to be fighting an uphill battle against drones for the rest of the game. However, although the UoP is a must, the benefits of this are astounding. What it basically equates to is a free Hologram Theatre in every base. So, not only has it countered one of the faction's main inherent disadvantages and more, it has saved them from paying 3 energy a turn per base for the remainder of the game! And that is a *lot* of energy saved - if you have, say, 30 bases, that is basically an extra 90 energy per turn, over 200 turns - well, you get the picture.

Playing against the UoP, it is imperative that you stop him getting the VW, or he will run away with the game. Simple as that.

Mark13

[Velociryx]

Consider this scenario: (and this is NOT hard to do with the University)

UoP Player begins like everyone else, with two colony pods, free tech is Ecology, and their first builds are set to be formers. Average build time (with ten free mins, of course) is four turns. No income to speak of, so you'll prolly not want to spend any money on rushes here (besides, it's almost always best for the UoP to SAVE their money, so they can switch to Planned Wealth (80 credits) as quickly as possible).

So, you kill four turns waiting for the formers, and another 2-3 building a token guard for the bases. It's now 2107, and if you're playing directed research, you're prolly about 3 turns from IA. With a bit of luck in pod lotto, you've got the cash to switch to Planned at this point, and with only two bases, it's not gonna hurt your income any, so you might as well reap the Industry and Growth kick (and, not a bad plan to start on the Tanks about now). By 2110, you've got IA, and very likely have the 40 credits (or close to it) to make the switch to Wealth (Industry = +2). Also, thanks to the +1 Econ, your income will prolly inch up ever so slightly (and pretty significantly (by early game standards) if either of your bases are working an energy special at this point), which will help give you the money to shave a couple turns off of the construction time of your tanks, and by now, you've got no less than six SP's you *could* start working on, but at this point, your best bet would be to have the most newly founded of your two bases start working on a crawler, and let the capital build a colony pod (with a plan to let the crawler build normally, and rush the pod). If your formers are road-building as they terraform (terraforming away from your bases toward new base sites), and if your spacing scheme has bases three apart, then the new pod will be able to base build exactly one turn after it is completed (and the capital's next build should also be a crawler). Completed crawlers harvest minerals for their respective bases to speed the *next* crawler in the chain, and you repeat til you have enough crawlers (preferably harvesting minerals on tiles with roads in them, thanks to your busy formers), to switch the base the crawlers are nearest to over to building the PTS. Est. 9 turns to build the first crawler, losing 1-2 turns on construction time per crawler finished, and that'll put you in the low to mid 2130's, again, depending on luck with pods energy. You'll maybe have 5-6 bases by this point, one at size three, two at size 2, and 1-2 at size one. When the PTS is completed then, your population will effectively double, catching you up with your competitors who have presumedly been following a more aggressive expansion, and leave you at a decided advantage throughout the remainder of your expansion (ie - early game bases, harvesting from forests will effectively be frozen at size three til you build the tanks, and that's just UNDER Zak's drone threshold), and the ROI on your colony pods effectively triples. Add to that the fact that each base can make it's initial build a crawler (effectively cutting the price of the crawler by a third, and giving the new base an additional 1-2 mins to work with), and you're in a dominant position *really* early in the game.

The only thing is, you've gotta terraform with a very definate plan when you play it this way....outward in linear fashion, like spokes on a wheel, and focus exclusively on roads, forests, and sensors for new base tiles.

Or...not?
-=Vel=-
[This message has been edited by Velociryx (edited November 29, 2000).]

[Garth Vader]

Although a great plan as usual Vel I generally have some, or all of the following problems which would prevent me from following this plan, or a similar one for another faction.

1. Meet an AI faction around turn 10-15. They hate me and want me dead, thus any beelines are eliminated as I have a pressing need for weapons.

2. Exploration is slowed down by lack of scouts/worms/fungus. If #1 has happened exploration is slowed by the need for garrisons, which also happens with worms.

3. Terrain eliminates any possibility of following the base placement scheme. Large patches of rocky/fungus/lake tiles dictate where I place the bases. Generally I have found that for early bases, ie the first 6 at least, it's very tough to get the former to the future base site for a sensor before the pod is built and gets there. Unless I am not building roads to the new site, but if I am not building roads then I am wasting my formers time anyway.

4. I am not offered the techs for my beeline, even under directed research. A recent game I played as the Gaians I got Ind Auto around turn 90, and I stole it. Although as the UoP this matter is largly moot, this is more in here for other factions.

[mark13]

Vel, I agree with the majority of your plan of action, however.....

....as Ogie points out, unless conditions are ideal, the lack of scouts will increase your vulnerability to mind worm/enemy attacks. Also, what happens in the mid-game, when another faction has nabbed the VW? Do you have to build some mega-expensive holo theatres, or do you jack up psych to 20% with the extra energy that come in? Once tree farms become available, your population will sky-rocket - if you rely heavily on crawlers, production is taken away from other facilities/pods/units. On a gargantuan map, that is all very well and good - but on anything smaller than a large one soem nasty AI faction will come in and gatecrash the party.

You are also, in your analysis, largely ignoring some of the more important military technologies - i.e. Nonlinear Maths - this can be very important for defensive, as well as offensive purposes. What happens if, halfway through the PTS, the Hive comes knocking with two impact rovers? Without Nonlinear Maths/High Energy Chemistry you will be at pains to hinder his progress for long. If you go for those straight after IndAuto, you are putting 20 years onto the discovery of EnvEco. I suppose you could mind control a couple, but any decent human player is going to have stacked them specifically for probe defense. Besides, that takes precious energy reserves....

But anyway, who am I to argue with Vel?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Vel,
A good strategem and I agree UoP is by far and away my fav.

A wrinkle if you will, and one I've discussed a fair bit in the past. IA is by far and a way the goal. I think the following scenario is also a very likely one a good one as well for UoP.

2101 - Landing. Choose free tech as Industrial Base (forgo former tech for the time being) More likely than not you'll have a 2 nutrient square available or a pod that can be popped for a monolith. First unit produced is scout to be rehomed to next base site. Then colony pod should be coming out about the same time as pop 2.
2103 - Planetary network discovered
2104-5 - Second base site (purposely chosen for an area with a 2 nutrient square and hopefully on a energy special. Scout for sight seeing and rehome to next colony
2106 - Industrial Econ
2109 - IA !!!
Now to former tech. Former tech is always avaialble by the time 3rd base is produced. Since you've garrisoned the second base with a previously made scout you can support two formers from the third base.

Now beeline onto SotHB
Forgo use of planned instead first upgrade to wealth then onto FM.

Next beeline is restriction lifting

BY beelining to SotHB you've set yourself up for a nice crawler upgrade package which allows you to use the rather plentiful FM/wealth energy package towards crawler upgrades for SP capture early and often and in the long run it prevents one extra SE switch as most often SE choice is Planned then Planned/wealth then FM/wealth then Demo/FM/Wealth then Pop boom time as Demo/planned/wealth. Going this route first Se choice is wealth then FM/wealth then Demo/FM/Wealth finally pop boom Demo/planned/wealth.

Or not....

Glad to see you back

Og



[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited November 29, 2000).]

[Enigma]

With time frames like this there is no way Yang or any other faction will come "knocking at your door" with attack units, cause they will be way too far behind in technology to have attack units. My only problem with the stuff that Ogie and Vel have presented is timeframe: on a standard map even I have never been able to get techs that rapidly with Zack, and at that early in the game there is no chance for any major variables. Are your bases on a river harvesting from a monolith square or something similar? In standard games (not MP) on transcend you start with a pod, an HQ base already founded, and a scout. It should take you 4 turns or so to move your 2nd pod into position and found your 2nd base, until then your HQ should be bringing in only 2-3 research points before Zack's research bonus, then after the research bonus that is 2.4-3.6 points, 3.6 * 3 years is 10.8.. even with Zack my research costs are never that low on a standard planet after say 3 breakthroughs. Are my calculations wrong?

I beeline to industrial auto as Morgan and seldom get it before the mid 20's on standard planets, that is switching to FM at the first available opportunity, making biogenetics your first tech choice- hurrying recycling tanks into both of your first bases and expanding like a maniac totally neglecting defense. But even if I could get IA super early as Morgan I generally would not even try to... he benefits so much by building bases because of the base square energy I find it is better to delay.

But could you guys please elaborate what tech costs you are assuming here? I will play a demo game as Zack just to see what tech costs are like..

[VoodooChild]

I gave up on UoP a long time ago. The problem I have with them is the techs come too fast. I like games where I strike a balance to techs and production. With UoP I find myself with too many things to build, and I often neglect defenses or some other key element of a balanced game because I am only a couple of techs away from the next best thing, so I build somthing else. The Drones are the opposite of this, slow research, mass production.

[Velociryx]

More Notes on the PTS-Driven Zak-Expansion:
Enigma is precisely right....the timeframe was off in my previous post....my apologies for that. When I was thinking back to the game I did this on, I DID get a bit lucky and nabbed Planetary Nets from a pod, which accelerated my game. In the absence of that though, what follows is a more detailed breakdown of how it'd work out:

Settlement: Unless I start on or next to a river, I don't generally build a base on the first turn. The first turn, I spend moving my pods in opposite directions from each other. Ideally, of course, there'll be a river nearby, and I'll be able to build both bases on turn two, but most often, that is not the case, so on 2102, I build the first base, with the second being constructed in 2103 almost without fail. On huge planets, my first tech usually comes in by 2106, and the next three techs after that will come in three years apart (and if I'm doing a mad dash for IA, then my first tech will be Industrial Base)--also note that if I have either a river or a monolith, then my first tech will arrive by 2105 (or sooner, depending on specials).

So, the very early game would go something like this:
2102: Base 1 Founded: Begin work on a Former (4 turns to complete)

2103: Base 2 Founded: Begin work on a Former (4 turns to complete)

2106: Industrial Base discovered. First former moves out to begin work. Base 1 begins work on a token guard (3 turns to complete). (Note that it will take me 13 turns of former activity to build a road net, two forests, and a sensor at the next base site, meaning all that will be accomplished by this former on 2120, and yep, even tho it makes my road network look kinna funny, I always start terraforming with the flat tiles...shaves a turn off of the road construction).

2107: 2nd former completed and moved. Base 2 working on a token guard (3 turns to complete)(RoadNet, 2 Forests, and Base Sensor will be completed by 2121).

2109: Base 1 Scout is finished, base begins working on a colony pod (est. to be completed by 2119, which works out NICELY with my former crews' timeframes) PlanetNets Discovered, and usually I've managed to scrape together enough to switch to Planned, which gives me a bit of a windfall where mins are concerned (not directly of course, but you know what I mean), which essentially makes it cheaper to MAKE that switch, again, using equal valuations for all factors of production).

2110: Base 2 Scout finished, and that base begins work on another former, just killin' time and savin' minerals til I get IA in a couple turns.

2112: Industrial Automation: Switch to Wealth for the 20% industry kick and some cash. Base 2 shifts production to a crawler, gearing up for the PTS and Wampum Big Population boost.

At this point, my build order and general strategy would go something like this:

As soon as Base 1 finishes it's pod, it will begin focusing exclusively on crawlers as well, with an eye toward spiking mineral counts to help make MORE crawlers, more quickly. It will fall to newly founded base three (to be built in 2120) to be the center for the empire's expansion until the PTS is completed, and if I've planned well, base three will be blessed with the presence of a Nutrient special, which will speed it's population growth).

Mineral Targets at Bases 1&2 will be 12, and if memory serves, with a +2 industry, this will give me a crawler every two turns, which means it won't be terribly long til I've got enough crawlers out there to build the PTS in a single turn via crawler cashing. Also, with crawlers on a regular production schedule, timed so that I get one crawler from an alternating base each turn, I don't have to spend any money rushing there, and can focus my income on rushing colony pods from my expansion base.

Formers: Because my expansion will be somewhat slower than under a "normal" paradigm, I'll devote two formers to foresting and mining the area near my first two bases, to give make my crawlers more productive, and use the former from base 3 (when it's built) to continue prepping new base sites.

Side Note: The presence of the sensor arrays at each "end" of my empire (given their radius-effect) pretty well blankets the zone I'm working in, and totally negates the morale hit taken by running wealth, so long as my troops deal with threats from somewhere beneath this blanket, which means I actually have a good chance of winning against early game worms, despite having a -2 Morale.

Potential problems:

Badguys calling: Depending on how I'm doing cash wise, I find it often in my best interest to pay a bribe to seal a treaty deal this early on, especially with my decidedly non-military focus.

Worms: Mostly, I use duck and run tactics against rogue worms til I get Empath stuff, heading back to base to defend there, and moving back out when it's safe.

Fungus: unless it takes me FAR out of my way, in the early game, I just go around it, but if I have to go through a patch, I generally double and triple team the fungus tile to get it cleared more quickly, and always under the guard of a scout. Also, if there's a *really* juicy special tile, sometimes it's worth the time to clear the fungus there, but in general, I save that stuff until the empire is more established, then revisit all the fungus patches later (with fungicidal tanks, making it more efficient to clear).

-=Vel=-

[Garth Vader]

Do people use the updraded crawlers for SP's in MP? Because in the cheat thread that is listed as a cheat. But yet that seems to be a common strategy here.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Nigma,

With the approach I outlined (i.e. forgo former tech in favor of beeline to IA) All that is required is three techs as you've taken your freebie as Industrial Base, those techs then being Planetary Networks, Industrial Economics, and finally IA.

I agree that the time line I outlined is extremely aggressive but was going on the same assumption that Vel was laying down that youve nabbed an energy special and or river landing/Monolith. Failing to do that I almost never (on large world SMACX situations) am unable to get to IA by 2112 more often than not 2111 if all was great I think 2109 is possible. Even doing this, it allows you to get IA and then discover Centauri Ecology by the time youve settled you first produced colony pod, thereby allowing you the choice of free 10 mins to be applied to first crawler or to first former. Second clony pod follows closely after from Base 2. Reasonably then by 2120 ish youve got your first 4 bases a former a crawler and are working on more. Hopefully your running wealth and can decide to go for either FM or Planned depending on your preference (mine being FM to continue the race through restriction lifting but first a detour through SotHB and hopefully a freebie tech)

Normally all restrictions can be lifted by 2140-2150 and you've started the juggernaut of obtaining SP's at will through crawler production which gets upgraded to synth-trance configuration and cashed in at SP producing base. I normally miss but one of the early ones but have gotten so lucky as to gain them all and usually have them by MY2170 - 2180 ish.

At this point it's merely a matter of plopping out the colony pods and building infrastructure as between VW and PTS projects your set for vast empire builds.

That of course assumes no pressing military matters need attention.

Og

Edited - Garth I've never considered crawler upgrades and cash in as a cheat especially for MP as all parties have the ability to do so. But that is neither here nor there, it simply is. I use the approach significantly. As for crawler upgrades for single player, if you have objections to this tactic then you absolutely should follow Vel's advice vs. mine as the energy from FM/wealth drives the whole approach.
[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited November 30, 2000).]

[Velociryx]

I always cash in my crawlers to speed projects, but I never upgrade them first. Cashing in "standard" crawlers is simply utilizing them as a store of value (ie - you get as many mins as you put in)

-=Vel=-
[This message has been edited by Velociryx (edited November 30, 2000).]

[Garth Vader]

Ogie, maybe this is a discussion for a cheat thread, but any cheat can be done by any player. Does that mean you'd use the right click multiple air drops for example? Cause anyone can do that.

Vel, good I am just afraid that I am handicapping myself in MP so I like to see what other people are doing.

[Velociryx]

More thoughts on the crawler thing:

I think in my mind, one of the coolest aspects of cashing in those scads of standard fission crawlers is that it truly gives the sense of the EMPIRE pulling together its collected economic muscle to accomplish a specific task. Most of the time, the game is run more as a collection of independent city-states, each base is more or less self sufficient, but when you've got half a dozen bases rushing crawlers on rover chassis to speed them to the site of some mid-game SP, you get a very definate sense that your Empire is functioning as a cohesive unit....and besides, it's a good peace-time exercise. All those crawlers zipping around gives you a good test of your infrastructure. If you note that there are no good paths from one point to another, you've just zeroed in on a task for a couple of formers, as soon as they finish up whatever they're currently workin' on. That's another reason I like to space my bases so close together. The interlocking defense it provides is just another example of the Empire working together. If a fringe base is threatened, I can send infantry reinforcements immediately from no less than two bases, and they'll be there in a single turn. Rovers can be called in from up to two bases away, giving me a massive stack of well-armed and armored defenders on any front in an instant's notice (and if things really look bad, then the Peace Frogs that happen to be close by can be added, and a few stray crawlers can be armored up for defense).

-=Vel=-
[This message has been edited by Velociryx (edited November 30, 2000).]

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Garth,

I apologize first off b/c this is completely off the post topic.

I suppose one could argue the point that any player can do a cheat but then to distinguish it as it a cheat one needs to test the tactic out using other criteria. Such as:

1) Was it the designers intent (your opinion of designer itent)?
2) Does use of said tactic completely unbalance the game?
3) Does the vast majority of players agree or disagree it is a cheat?
etc.

So if I run a litmus test on the crawler upgrade and cash in approach. I still find the waters muddied.

Q1 - In my estimation the desingers fully intended for every unit to be fully upgradeable (exception being nativelife forms, AA and ogres). Cashing in crawlers for full min value for SPs and Prototypes certainly as well. The combination of the two ??????.

(As a contrast it is my opinion that multiple air drops/insertions was never a designer intention so this fails the litmus test.)

Q2 - In single player certainly but playing SP angainst the AI one could argue is unfair. Assuming everyone employs this method then comparison of game results needs to understand method of play. For MP since it is a tactic employable by all no it doesn't unbalance the game. Now one may argue that it creates an unfair advantage to tech driven factions b/c as soon as they gain a tech within a turn or two they can build an SP and as such I might agree. So again the jury is out.

Q3 - Finally since most of the folks developing the cheat list indicate they think it a cheat, I suppose I would grudgingly agree. However, I think there are a number of folks out there who still Must Dissent , And as such 'house rules' crop up in many MP games.

Anyhoo, no skinoff my nose one way or the other. As I have said numerous times before in SP. Do what floats your boat. See what works and doesn't. If you ethically have problem with a particular tactic/strategem don't use it. In routine play I refuse to use nerve gas as it is unbalancing yet this clearly was a design feature.

My only caveat to this is, if you post game results you should be willing to come clean as to the potentially dubious tactics you may have used as otherwise the comparison is invalid. As such I say now, most of the games I play employs this tactic, so take those reslts with a grain of salt if you must.

[Velociryx]

Hmmmm....I think I'm gonna have to come clean as well then, because as I think on it, I HAVE sorta done something similar....

A sizable chunk of my defense strategy revolves around armoring everything and the kitchen sink, and often, that includes crawlers (it's not at all uncommon to see Vel's Empires filled up with armored, trance crawlers and formers so I don't have to keep guards with them), and, when I need a couple to speed a project, I don't think twice about cashing them in (although if said unit has survived a few battles and gained a decent morale rating, I'll prolly spare it in favor of a less experienced model). I mean, I don't get silly with it....I don't make a Polymorphic Encrypted, fully armored crawler, paying for a clean reactor even tho it doesn't need it, but I DO armor them up.

-=Vel=-